Astral beings

[cbad]

Well I was staying up 'till one last night watching most haunted ( ) and I was a little bothered by the guy they had on there who claimed he could see and hear ghosts. It was so incredibly matter-of -actly, vague and full of failed cinematics that I seriously doubted anything was going on. Then he started getting stuff right and I began to wonder. Soon he started blabbering on about astral entities and astral energy and astral this and astral that and I thought "does he have any idea what the astral plane is?". Then I got up to trying to figure out how it would be possible for ghosts to be astral (note: I am neither agreeing or disagreeing with him).

I figured that after you die, you would have to go to the astral plane somehow so maybe your mind goes there like when you do astral projection. Ghosts would probably have to find some way to come back or project their consciousnesses back, or alternatively, they could simply be a psionic imprint of that persons mind. The guy makes references to how powerful they are by the size of the "astral energy" that is present. Since astral energy is so much more powerful than psi energy then the phenomena like geisting and voices could be done with techniques like PK and telepathy so that might explain how some people can hear them. The ghost would have to have a reason to even bother appearing in the material plane though so that equals up with what we "know" of ghosts. The closest I could come up with is that the people who "sense" these ghosts have natural sensitivity or maybe a limited degree of empathy that lets them connect to these minds back from the other realm and read their feelings and thoughts. All in all though, it seems pretty far-fetched.

I'd love to hear your opinions on the matter!

[confuded]

OK, i strongly suggest you cross out the part about minds or souls going to the astral plane after physical death. It goes deep into religious arguments and opinios. In other words banned flame wars... Just a suggestion .
(i mean just like select that text and presing the crosing out button ;D)

Your theory might be very posible. Looking at DA, the most acomplished empath on the forum, and how astral ententities favour her (not even funny). Anyway, DA can speak for herself.

Data about what type of people astral ententities seem to appear around is needed. Meaning empaths, telepaths or just strong Psions.

Ghosts? Well, i havent done much research on this matter, but it is likely that gosts can be astral ententities. In other words i have no data or observations to either deflate or support your theory. Just a dinky opinion of asumptions .

~confuded

[cbad]

I'm not trying to start anything here. I'm saying that if this guy is right then this is probably what would have to happen.

[The Devil's Advocate]

Astral energy is not any more powerful than Psi energy. It's just more CONCENTRATED. If that makes sense? So it seems more powerful in many cases. I have a notion or two about what the Astral plane is, and while I can't say NO ONE ever hits the astral after they die, I CAN say not everyone does, but that is a deep and convoluted argument. Ghosts are likely not astral anything, at least not initially. See all previous arguments about nasty astral things doing nasty things to souls outside of the nice firm anchor of their body...

Psi protects against astral energy quite efficiently. You just have to know what you're doing. Kind of like in a boxing match you have to know how to block a blow or you're going to get clobbered, even if the other guy isn't any stronger than you are.

Now, I'm going to go a little out on a limb. I do think that astral beings can be mistaken for ghosts, even though they're not. I also know that very powerful emotional events leave a mark on an area. I can tell, empathically, by walking into a church if it's devout or not. (I do not speak for synagogues, mosques, or any other such thing. I've not been invited in so I haven't been in.) This is NOT to start a religious debate, simply to illustrate. Conversely I have been in places that bear the mark of very, very nasty things. There are buildings I refuse to enter because of such things.

I would like to note something: Astral beings aren't the only ones out there. I'm not sure what's at Arlington, but I don't think it's a ghost. It feels... guarded... if that makes sense. Though the last time I was there I was still in psionic denial so can only explain what I picked up passively. In the chaos of the DC area it was utterly peaceful. There was a feeling of presence... and the obvious tourism small though it was (it was a drizzly day so there were few tourists) clashed. It was a very gloomy day... but Arlington wasn't gloomy. I stayed until I was soaked because it was the first peaceful time I'd had since joining the military, so it's not just churches that get the feeling.

I wonder if it is that sort of thing that started much of the applications of the concept of 'holy ground'. But that is random speculation.

~The Devil's Advocate, actually just rambling rather than DAing.

[cbad]

So he WAS just BSing it!

[confuded]

So what are gosts if not astral? Actually there are plenty of stuff that ghosts can be...

cbad, sorry i forgot you are qouting someone.

~confuded, being confuded.

[The Devil's Advocate]

Ghosts are people (or at least the few times I'd thought I'd scanned a ghost that's how it'd scanned out). That's the only way I can describe them. They have signatures, and the same complex scans that humans have. They tend to be more emotion and less reason than a flesh and blood human and there's less... substance... to them if you will.

Caveat and DAing myself: This is all assuming I have actually had occasion to scan a ghost and not simply mistaken some other phenomenon for one. It's a real possibility.

~The Devil's Advocate

[confuded]

I dont get it, ghosts are people? How does that make sense? I mean to me it doesnt... You mean they have similair characteristics to people? Its a bit confusing...

~truely confuded

[cbad]

They are dead people. They are human minds. Human consciousnesses. Or at least very close/

[The Devil's Advocate]

"Ghost" Typically means someone whose body has died and they haven't gone on to wherever people go when they die. (I have firm ideas but that is perview of religion and, frankly, I don't know enough about ghosts to really go into that part of it.) What I've scanned has felt like what would properly be named 'ghost' but I might be in error, since none of them have ever actually walked up to me and said 'Hi, I'm the ghost of this theater my name is..."

~The Devil's Advocate

[cbad]

Dennis

[goliath797]

Dennis?

sorry to bring this up,but ive been doing a LOT on astral stuff after i left here.

After you die, ghosts supposedly settle on the ethereal plane, which is actually the crossing point between our plane and the astral. The ethereal is sorta a mix between the both, and is the most identical to our plane that we live and breath on. Once we die, supposedly we go to the ethereal plane, where we waste away our human like energy, so we may pass on as entities to the astral. Some however skip this stage entirely and just go. However, there is a possibility you get lost, since it is a mirror image of what existed, and what was thought to exist. If there was a couch ever in your house, then was later removed, in the ethereal, as long as it stays important enough to linger in memories, it'll still be there. They get lost and sometimes wander for a while before they pass on. However, hauntings usually occur due to an early death that was not the natural way to pass away. They have enough human energy (we shall call this human matter D:) because they did not die at the point where their lives were coming near an end. Their human matter still exists in a strong amount. Their spirits were so strong that they linger for a long time past it. Since in the ethereal, time is a bit different then it is here, that time can be quite a while.

[The Devil's Advocate]

Actually, having extensively scanned the Astral, you're incorect, Goliath. The ASTRAL is a 'gate way' region, for lack of a better term. And you do not want to go to the other side of that. It is, for lack of a better term pure Hell. I've tried to scan the Ethereal and I don't get so much of an inbetween point to the astral as an illusion point for the astral. The astral also has a very specific type of energy. Most ghosts do not, inherently exhibit that kind of energy. (Note, I'm defining 'ghost' as one of these lingering signatures/mentalities.)

Now this is NOT to be confused with an empathic impression left on a REGION. Some of the 'haunted' areas I have been in have just been an overall empathic sense that is so powerful it gets through to pretty much anyone but there is no one signature or personality associated with it.

It's an interesting theory, but 'what happens after we die' can be easily debated off line under the category of 'religion'. My own scans do not really support the existence of an ethereal plane outside of science fiction and fantasy. I've had several people try and convince me, but, again, as far as I can tell, everything that has been pointed out to ME as 'the ethereal plane' has been a layer of astral energy creating a specific illusion. There is no substance to it. No real blending. If you can point me in another direction we might talk offline (PM me on the issue.)

~The Devil's Advocate

[confuded]

I just want to note to both of you, not going on either side, that the are OTHER planes than the astral and ours. Most of them are the higher planes. I do not remember any lower ones. I am neither sure what level of scanning you need to achive or if you can scan them at all without being there.

My sources go beyond Psioncs. This is just the tip of the iceberg which i had been tought to understand other things.

[Fearn]

Mar 23, 2008 22:47:33 GMT -5 The Devil's Advocate said:

The ASTRAL is a 'gate way' region, for lack of a better term. And you do not want to go to the other side of that

Someone agrees with me? How odd. I have been telling people this for quite a long time. Beyond the astral is a point of no return (cue ominous music ) so to speak.

Mar 23, 2008 22:47:33 GMT -5 The Devil's Advocate said:

I've tried to scan the Ethereal and I don't get so much of an inbetween point to the astral as an illusion point for the astral.

I think terms need to be clarified (maybe just for me). I was under the impression that the Ethereal plane was a mimic of the Earth. That's the one where you OBE and see your body laying in bed "asleep." The Astral is another place that isn't the mimic of anything physical. That's where the astral energy comes to play, you can manipulate the energy which manipulates your surroundings. Is this not true?

Mar 23, 2008 22:47:33 GMT -5 The Devil's Advocate said:

Now this is NOT to be confused with an empathic impression left on a REGION. Some of the 'haunted' areas I have been in have just been an overall empathic sense that is so powerful it gets through to pretty much anyone but there is no one signature or personality associated with it.

I have heard a metaphor for this phenomena, it's like a bad smell. It lingers around, and even people without an amazing sense of smell [empathy] can smell [sense] it.

Now, on the topic posed by the OP: I have seen that show (it's the one on the Travel Channel, right?). Just ignore it. It has no basis in anything real. Basically, these people are just conning the owners of the "haunted" houses for money. For the most part; ignore pretty much everything TV tells you. It's pretty much, never true.

The dead don't seem to go to the astral plane (as DA has said). Let's just say that they go elsewhere. Further debating of this will spark religious debate, which is not allowed.

What kind of phenomena would voices be?

the phenomena like geisting and voices

So he WAS just BSing it!

Yep.

So what are gosts if not astral? Actually there are plenty of stuff that ghosts can be...

This sparks the religious debate that we were trying to avoid. I just got an idea of what they are: ambient energy? I'll have to investigate that. There are a couple of theories as to what ghosts are; the imprint of a spirit left over from a very violent death (this one sort of blends with the left over feelings version), or the actual spirit of a person that didn't go "elsewhere" at death. Then you have Sylvie Browne's theory (that I'm just providing for the sake of argument); when you die, your soul goes "elsewhere" to plan out your next life and be ultimately reincarnated, or your soul stays here to become a ghost. The difference between spirits and ghosts? Spirits float one meter off the ground (exactly one meter, because "elsewhere" is actually floating above the Earth, unseen because we are still in physical bodies). Ghosts walk around. Now how's that for crazy?

What was all that about Dennis? Hi Goliath!

Ooh! That was fun, now I see why you do it DA.