The Devil's Advocate
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Respected Member I will deflate your theories and claims with ye olde pointy stick of logic.
Est autem fides credere quod nondum vides; cuius fidei merces est videre quod credis.
Posts: 1,552
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Post by The Devil's Advocate on Apr 18, 2008 23:00:25 GMT -5
Where am I getting this? 12 years that I can clearly recall being attacked by the same type of "thing", before I had any clue what was happening or what the 'astral' was other than a term from fantasy and science fiction novels. When someone identified the defenses I had instinctively raised against these attacks as specifically targeting the type of energy associated with Astral Projection and the Astral Plane. When I started to learn to use psionics actively rather than instinctively, the attacks grew worse and could only be defeated, on a psionic level, by that 'astral shield'. I followed more than one person, via scanning, while they were dealing with the Astral in more 'standardized' ways, and found it to be the same energy with the same hostile beings there, usually well disguised. I found the same when I 'followed' someone to the Ethereal. When I followed the astral connection, I encountered several things that I had encountered before but had previously had no explanation. My encounters with Magick have revealed that Magick uses the same type of energy as the Astral has, which is distinctly separate from how Psi scans, and not in the way one person's 'signature' differs from another or from ambient psi. There is also a sense of 'force' behind the astral when I scan it. Analogy: A lake of 'energy' behind a very narrow opening between two granite faces, not a lot of the lake's water gets out, but the water there has alot of power behind it. Then put a dam there with several 'pin holes', and you get a very good idea of what the Astral scans like. Especially if you then disguise the dam as the surrounding mountainside.
Another example, a friend of mine got deeply into OBE, Astral Projection, and Magick. As the year progressed he became literally unrecognizable, both on a psionic and personality level. If I hadn't watched the entire process happen, I would NOT have recognized him when the break point came. Scans of him showed a very high concentration of astral energy, and then, after the break and he got back to 'himself,' the concentration of Astral energy was largely gone.
I've yet to meet an astral being that was NOT hostile. (That being said there are beings IN the astral that are not hostile, but they have a different energy type even than the Astral. It's not psi it's not astral. I'm not sure WHAT it is. Which is why it's just Russian Roulette not overt suicide.) Every encounter I have had with them they have registered on an Empathic level as well as a purely scannable one. Malice is the dominant emotion I pick up on from them. Hate, anger, despaire, and spite have all figured prominently as well.
My hostility to the Astral comes out of the FACT that negative things have been coming FROM it TO me, not the other way, and have been doing so for a minimum of 14-15 years. I only learned about the astral as such 3 years ago. Oh, and please CITE your quotes.
~The Devil's Advocate
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Post by leodragon on Apr 19, 2008 0:05:43 GMT -5
I have met plenty of astral entities that are not hostile and have explored the astral planes in addition to perceiving on a regular basis for years. We are describing the same place from different view points. You are describing it as some night marish realm and I am not. You experienced bad things on there and the astral is my vacation spot. Magick is nothing more than a paradigm that allows for the accomplishment of psionic phenomenon under the psychological mechanics of "magick". The astral is nothing more than a manifestation of the things that emnate from the consiousness, therefore the force that magick uses and what the astral is composed of would be similar. As I stated before, it is highly responsive to thoughts and emotions, therefore, what you percieve is what you get. In other words, you are creating and attracting these negative experiences yourself. As a person who astral projects on a regular basis (and has been doing so for years), I would have to disagree with you on this subject. It is only as dangerous as you make it. I can understand your view point, but it seems like irrational paranoia to me. I am maintain a level practicality. A lot of the mechanics that so called "magick" employ are psychological mechanics used to alter a person's perception of the world. Many of them are Ego destroying and personality warping. Your friend who got into that stuff could have participated in alot of those psychological manipulations of Self and suffered from a mental break. Occultist are known to being consumed by obsession for some odd reason. I am sorry, my years of experience with the astral as well as the years of experiences by other's that I know in that area do not line up with what you are saying. That is like saying that the Earth is a bad place because there are bad people on there. The Earth is just a hunk of rock. Same thing with the astral. It is just simply a location with various things within it. If experiments in psi (not psi energy) show that it is not limited by space, time, can not be detected, and can not be shielded, then how exactly does it do what it does. If something is non spatial and non temporal, then by its very nature it is non physical due to the fact that it exist outside of space and time. My point is that psi phenomenon work via the mental/astral plane otherwise you would have locality problems. I find it highly unlikely that "psi energy" is traveling all the way across the country in such a concentrated fashion as to not be shielded,disrupted, or weakened by distance without a medium. One can argue that is by something that is undetectable, but that doesn't explain such things as post/precognition. The mind being able to percieve such a thing would mean that the mind lies outside of time and space, and therefore, by definition, would be non physical. Not only does it go against space and time it also violates quantum entanglement. My point is the astral is nothing more than a by product of consiousness. Consciousness appears to exist outside of space and time. Psi is linked to the consiousness. Since both are linked to consiousness and are work through each other, than astral projection is as dangerous as any other form of psi, which means you should stop practing psi (catch the sarcasm). The alternative is that you can believe that some form of energy is really leaving your brain (the brain produces EM waves and fields which have a time limit, a medium, and can be detected) and traveling thousands of miles with no medium, instantaneously, without being shielded or weakened or detected. Again, I OBE all of the time and I am not saying that they are no negative things there (there are bad things everywhere in the universe period), but I haven't experienced your "nightmare" and to say that they are all enemies in disguise is like saying that every person in the world is actually something that is out to get you. That is a bit paranoid. I am not doubting your experience, I am just saying that your experiences are not all inclusive. I only learned about the astral as such 3 years ago. Oh, and please CITE your quotes. The quote about the astral was taken from something that I had written on a site that I just started a couple of days ago. psionslair.t35.com/psiworld/theastral.htmlIt sounds like a person getting abused by tall pale men and therefore associating tall, pale men with bad. To that person, all tall, pale men are dangerous and will hurt them based upon past negative trauma. Matter is composed of neutrons, protons, and electrons. Each one has a different property. This gives an atom its properties and its makes a carbon atom different than a sodium atom. Are they different? Yes, but that does make them occupy separate worlds? No. It is the same thing within the astral plane, so I don't understand why you classify things with different properties as different things. Psi has this property so it must occupy this world and this has this property so it most occupy this world, but the first one can't be detected on this world. It is part of the same landscape and it seems that you take a limited somewhat spatial/linear view of the astral as well. There is no up. There is no down. There is no right. There is no left. There is no space and there is no time (which is why it is easier to cast ones mind forward and backwards through time when one is projecting). That is actually what I enjoy about the astral realm. It is essentially a realm of pure potentiality and pure freedom, in an odd sense. Again I am not knocking your experiences, I am just stating that it is not all inclusive. I just had a brain storm when I was reading how they register to you on an empathic level. I know what you are intercepting, which explains alot. Your senses and the things that attack are on and extend to the astral level that is closet in geography to this one and is typically inhabited by nasty things. The things that are not nasty have a different signature to them because they exist on a different level of the astral plane. They are still astral, just not the type of ones on the lower ones (I am using higher and lower to explain). You can divide the astral into mini planes. Plane1, Plane2, Plane3. Plane1 is out of sync mildly with this one, meaning that it still has a geographic relationship to this plane of existence. Meaning that a mountain in X location is still a mountain in X location on the astral (in another thread I spoke about consiousness being rooted in the quantum implicate order and therefore manifest to a level in all things physical creating a mental copy for everything physical). This is normally inhabited by space and other people. The one further away and above that is a slightly distorted copy of Plane1 and is inhabited mostly by REALY nasty things. I mean hateful things. They HATE you. I really mean HATE you. There is a reason why, but I won't go into that. As you progress further and further away from the physical, the geographic realtionship fades and then vanishes altogether and for every "sub plane" that you cross, there are different "residents". Most people bypass the nasty one altogether, I wonder why you don't...
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The Devil's Advocate
Author
Respected Member I will deflate your theories and claims with ye olde pointy stick of logic.
Est autem fides credere quod nondum vides; cuius fidei merces est videre quod credis.
Posts: 1,552
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Post by The Devil's Advocate on Apr 19, 2008 1:14:21 GMT -5
Magick is no more Psionics than a Baboon is a ferret. There is a REASON that Magick is not discussed in depth on this site without moderator approval and supervision. They're not the same thing and you are sadly mistaken if you think they are.
You're really stretching this. Your theory is not backed up even by specific occurances, and it gets much more outlandish as you go. You make up layers on the fly (how can it have 'layers' if it's 'just a blob of mental energy') You're contradicting yourself.
I will note: Ironically the ONLY people who seem to think the astral is a jungle gym are those who come at it from a psionic stand point. I have several people I speak to off line who also revile casual contact with the Astral. It is dangerous. No, I will not give you their names. I do not have permission to give you their names. I have helped one of them (mostly with energy) combat things from the Astral plane (she griped mightily about summoners opening holes without knowing what they were doing.)
A question for you: How could I create them myself when I had nothing to do with the Astral until the Astral came looking for ME? 12 years of IT coming to ME. I never went to it, not once.
As for my scanning ability: Try me. I've lead people there without going. (Specifically Cullen) It is something that can be perceived without going there or projecting, it just takes a bit of skill and finesse which most people don't bother to develop. The 'first layer' I invariably run into is a surface level illusion on the level of "it looks good" .
Oh, and if you'll actually bother to read the OBE/Ethereal thread, you'll discover we get into this in some more detail over there.
There's an open conflict going on between the Astral and here, and I think you have just declared your side, whether you know it or not. I've hunted the things that hunt me. i've tracked them back to where they come from, and the deeper I go into the Astral the MORE negative and evil it gets not the less. Yes, it gets less directly violent, but much more subtly damaging, it starts eating away at your personality changing who you are.
Astral energy is as different from psi as a a proton is from a thought. (And I do mean the actual THOUGHT not the neural connections that carry said thought.) Psi is all pervasive. The Astral is only one layer in many. I stopped counting they seemed to stretch to infinity the last time I bothered to check. As for checking the 'Full extent' of the astral, no I haven't been everywhere but I have done hunt and find attempts once I decerned the non-astral beings on the Astral. I recommend YOU actually look deeper, start thinking about what's beneath the pretty picture you think is the full extent of the Astral. You're sounding much too much like the esoteric New Age sites that slap things together because they sound good, than someone who's actually thought his arguments through or really experienced that much on the topic.
I've dug a great deal deeper than you give me credit for. Just because I didn't seek out the astral until recently doesn't mean there are no skills regarding it at my disposal. Of course you're going to argue that I've just brought it all on myself, but to use your analogy, when someone's been abused, the first thing the allies of the abuser say is "She deserved what she got." It occurs to me that they may be giving you so much less of a hard time because you're giving them what they want already, they don't have to steal it.
~The Devil's Advocate
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Post by leodragon on Apr 19, 2008 2:08:02 GMT -5
Magick is no more Psionics than a Baboon is a ferret. There is a REASON that Magick is not discussed in depth on this site without moderator approval and supervision. They're not the same thing and you are sadly mistaken if you think they are. I don't believe in magick (yes I have studied it in depth and have an accurate knowledge of its mechanics to form an opinion) and I said a shortned version is that the astral realm is nothing more than a mental landscape and that is has many different areas. From the tone of your post, or maybe I am misinterpreting it, you seem to be implying that I too have not had experience in that area. I keep pointing out that I actually go there on a regular basis. That means everyday. I am sorry that you have had such bad experiences, but it is not all bad. Whenever I came close to having a bad experience, I simply projected away. It is as easy as simply picking out where you want to go and thinking and your away from there instantly. The astral plane to me exist as a weird type of void filled with complex weird sensations and different signatures. Entities and people exist as pin points of consiousness that glow really bright if that makes any sense. The... stuff that it is filled of and that it is made of fills... the closet way that I can explain it is like water, but not regular water. Heavy and dense feeling. It feels highly responsive. Like... something that can be gathered and molded together, if that makes sense. Since it is so responsive, one can manipulate it as they please if they know how. If one thinks sits there and with their mind creates an intricate image of a building it will respond to the stuff that it is created from and come into being. Well, not really, it is more or so your perception of a building. The astral is really bizare on a personal level. The feeling is amazing, though. You can feel that stuff all around you, so it feels as if you can alter the environment with a carefully placed thought (which you can). I like the feeling of weightlessness. I have encountered nasty things before, and I simply just did the equivalent of walking in the other direction really fast. They didn't bother me and I didn't bother them. I love the feeling of pure thought and emotion. It is like pure thought and emotion make up that place (which technically it does). It is hard to explain... It is like walking outside on a beautiful day and feeling the warmth of the sun, the smell of the trees, and the sounds of nature. It is kind of like the astral side of that with thoughts and emotions. I love the feeling of zooming through whatever that stuff is. It is kind of like heavy concentrated, super water, LOL. Then the travel. When you are near the physical plane you can instantly travel to wherever you want to go. I love that. It is awsome. I love the mind to mind feeling of the environment. I am sorry that you don't seem to be able to experience the positive side of that plane. It is truly amazing. I am not saying that there are no bad sides to it. I am just saying that it is possible to avoid it. Since that plane is highly responsive to thought, a projector could create their own evironment. That means that one minute you could be in the typical scene and then the next in the space that I occupy and that I created. What I love is that the only thing that you are limited by is imagination, which is why I love astral projecting so much. I actually probably do it unhealthily, LOL. The only difference between what you call "psi" and this "astral" energy is the density. You were right on astral being more concentrated, but it is a more concentrated form of psi since they are both at least partially tied to the mind. Again, I am not knocking your experience, I am simply stating that the astral realm is not this one big negative landscape, nor is its structure even remotely like this one. I am trying to describe it in the best way I can. When you are close to this plane, things look the same, but the further out you get, the more different things become. I divided it up onto planes or layers so that I could explain it a little bit better. Like you have different climate regions with different animals. Same thing. As far as your "scanning" ability, I was simply stating that I don't believe that you have the ability to scan an entire thing like the astral dimension or whatever you want to call it. The astral stuff is responsive to thought so where you think is where you could be, so a person could accidentally negatively think themselves into a nasty place or send alot a type of scent, like blood to a shark in the ocean, which is what I believe happened/happening to you. You are honing into and attracting the negative zones and things due to your association with the astral with that. Scanning is like looking. So when you say scan, I am taking it as simply standing on the sidelines and looking and going umm humm with a note pad. Unless you actually explore via astral projection, I don't think you should base it upon scanning, but you seem to be so terrified of the astral that I doubt that you will ever do that. The astral is just a different plane, dimension, world, whatever. It has bad areas and good areas. You wouldn't go into the ghetto of Detroit at night and get out of your car with the keys in the ignition and walk up to a gang of really rough looking dudes and say hey, right? So why would you do the astral version of it. You are painting a negative, dismal nightmarish picture of the astral. I am not attempting to say that it is all love and sun shine and flowers, but I am not saying that it is populated with serial killer entities that want to eat you and an astral water dam that will crush you with its enormous pressure, LOL. There's an open conflict going on between the Astral and here, and I think you have just declared your side, whether you know it or not. I've hunted the things that hunt me. i've tracked them back to where they come from, and the deeper I go into the Astral the MORE negative and evil it gets not the less. Yes, it gets less directly violent, but much more subtly damaging, it starts eating away at your personality changing who you are. What?! Are you serious? Anyways, yes it can eat your personality the deeper or higher that you go. The reason for this has to do with...how do I explain it. On the astral your just a projected or detached mind in a sea of thoughts and emotions with other floating minds. Kind of like water pressure. The deeper you go, the more...the outside influences you to replaces you if that makes sense. It is like the bigger stuff is deeper and the thought/emotion/stuff scape is stronger to the point where it kind of floods into you and you can't retain the intergerity of your personality. I have had something like that come close to happening to me because I did something stupid. I attempted an astral feat that I should not have. Oh god, that is the worst feeling imaginable. It is like you are stuck in this blender, if that makes sense, and all types of stuff are pulling at you and trying to flood into you. It is like 10000 times worse than empathic/telepathic overload and can drive you into the loney bin, but thats only if you do something really stupid, like I was trying (don't ask). I never said I disagreed with their being dangers or knocked your experience, I just think you are being a little over paranoid, which is a natural response.
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Post by nuclearwinter on Apr 19, 2008 11:31:03 GMT -5
hey wouldnt the devil be included in this category? i just remembered the exorcist and its shitty scary that anyone would wanna do stuff like OBE and all that.
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innerfire
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Respected Member
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Post by innerfire on Apr 19, 2008 13:20:10 GMT -5
I've been staying out of this argument primarily because I don't have the experience or knowledge to sufficiently argue in it, and since there's others that do, I'll stay out the way However I'd like to point out something that was troubling me as an observer. While DA has varied her arguments several times, Leo, you've basically repeated the same ideas in response each time, even though several times DA has offered a point that contradicts what you're saying. Example: A question for you: How could I create them myself when I had nothing to do with the Astral until the Astral came looking for ME? 12 years of IT coming to ME. I never went to it, not once. I never saw an answer from your explanation that explains this. A fair conclusion to an argument is only reached when both sides put full effort into it, you're not doing your side any favors by ignoring some of these points. I'm going to step back out of this argument again, so it'd probably be better to respond to DA rather than me (after all, the only thing I did was emphasize one of her points).
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Post by leodragon on Apr 19, 2008 15:08:55 GMT -5
While DA has varied her arguments several times, Leo, you've basically repeated the same ideas in response each time, even though several times DA has offered a point that contradicts what you're saying. Example: A question for you: How could I create them myself when I had nothing to do with the Astral until the Astral came looking for ME? 12 years of IT coming to ME. I never went to it, not once. I never saw an answer from your explanation that explains this. A fair conclusion to an argument is only reached when both sides put full effort into it, you're not doing your side any favors by ignoring some of these points. I'm going to step back out of this argument again, so it'd probably be better to respond to DA rather than me (after all, the only thing I did was emphasize one of her points). That is because I didn't feel like going into it because it would spawn something else entirely. In short version, not everything is nice and not everything bad. You have various entities, which are individuals, that like to do various things. I pointed out that psi and the astral are tied to the mind and therefore having an aptitude for one opens you to the other. By being empathic, DA was naturally open more so than your average person. Being that age, training was probably minimal and she probably registered high on the scale without defense. That would be an easy target or an easy meal for some things. Then you have things that are sadistic, simply. You can call them incopreal sociopaths that mess around with people to see their reaction out intrigue, amusement, and they don't care how damaging it could be to the person. However, it should be noted that from what DA said, that these things came after her before she knew of such things and I would take it that it meant before she ever astral projected, if she ever has. This means that they can reach you in astral or not. In most cases they use the input function of sensory mechanisms against you. Close down the input and you close down the opening and they can make faces at you all day long, you won't even know of their existence, LOL. What makes this different when it comes to the astral plane is that you exist there as a point of consiousness in relation to other point's of consiousness. Therefore, it is not as simple as closing down the input function. A person not used to that environment would be at a major disadvantage if something did indeed choose to attack them. I disagree with DA on the subject of the astral being a living nightmare, however, I don't disagree that there are dangers, but not to the extreme that DA is talking about. Entities do it all the time. Have a strong, young person with no training and at that moment minimal defenses, and torture the crap out of them for fun. In some cases, they will actually try and... what is the phrase I am looking for... pull you into astral mode so they can screw you over even more. I pointed out that they can manifest psychokinetic phenomenon just like we can, so they could chuck something at you even if you are not astral projecting. I wouldn't classify them as good or bad they just have different intentions that are unique to each of them, just like each one of us is unique. Most don't really even care. It is somewhat insulting when they don't acknowledge your presence, well to me at least. I said I wasn't knocking DA's experience because its actually quite usual, LOL. A lot of astral entities that stay close to here actually will screw around with you, especially if you are a child. The ones that stick around the part thats closest to here are actually quite nasty. There is a reason for that. A lot of entities were never human, some were. Those that were contain the bulk of who they were in life, complete with emotions. A lot of these people were not so very nice. I am not going into spirits with all of the religious attachment or any of that, I am referring to simply a disembodied mind. The response, I believe is a normal psychological response, but an illogical association of one aspect with the whole. That is like saying because since a black person one mugged on John Street, that means that all black people on John's street are mugger's. The ones that aren't mugger's, that I will admit aren't mugger's, aren't really black. I don't know what they are, but they aren't black because black people on John's street are mugger's. Come on. The intital attack could have been the result of something just seeking DA out, but the constant perpetuation of a negative association along with other obvious feelings, make a person hone into the nastiest levels of the astral. I am not saying that they don't exist, I am simply stating that it is not all inclusive. That is like going to the ghetto on Brooklyn and assuming that the entire country is just like that ghetto in Brooklyn. From my experience, "the astral" feels... what's the word... denser, heavier, more concentrated than "psi", but just only varying in their density and concentration. Meaning, that they are the same thing just to a different extent. That is why I disagree with DA on that aspect. Since it feels different it most be different, entirely. Then you might as well say that liquid water and ice are separate things altogether. They are just different states of different concentration. I have a hard time explaining thins in a short amount of words, and I don't like to type, so I have a bad habit of possibly avoiding things that are going require a long answer (yes, I know big character flaw).
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