darkerside
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Post by darkerside on Feb 1, 2007 14:43:23 GMT -5
I feel like I'm going crazy again. Why? Cause I think I might have moved something with TK.
I don't have a psiwheel, but what I do have is a mechanical pencil that is weighted in such a way that I can teeter it on the edge of my desk. My TK experiments involved trying to get the pencil to lose balance and fall on the floor. Well, last night I was trying it for the third day, and it actually moved and fell on the floor. Normally I would chalk this up to gravity, but it actually teetered the OTHER WAY before rebounding and falling on the floor.
My natural skeptic tried to rationalize this by thinking of ways this could have happened. I took the same position and started breathing hard to see if my breath did it, but my nose angles it down and it couldn't've reached. Everyone in my house was asleep and I held perfectly still, so it couldn't've been shock waves(like from footsteps.) My door was shut, my windows were closed, my house is well insulated, and the fan was not on, so there couldn't have been drafts. And no part of my body was close enough to affect it with heat.
I've ruled out everything......I think.
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innerfire
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Post by innerfire on Feb 1, 2007 17:24:52 GMT -5
1) Congrats 2) My, God, why do you hate yourself so much as to be starting with a pencil I've been at some form of tk for over a year (first dice then psiwheel), and I still can't get a pencil to work. Again, that said, well done 3) I'd have to say that sounds actually pretty well checked for tk, a pencil being heavier than a piece of paper probably doesn't have to be screened as extensivily for wind and stuff as a psiwheel, so you got that on your side. And also in my experience I've noticed the psiwheel sometimes does a similar thing where it teeters 1 way before spinning the direction I told it to. 4) By the feeling of being crazy is relatively normal, I kinda have that happen when I realize while my results with the psiwheel aren't too strong and still have stuff to dispute it, the probability of me being able to get it to work to some extent for over 100 practices in a row makes the odds astronomical for it to be chance crap all those times: Then I go for the similar reaction, hmmm, maybe I'm nuts -Hmmm, I wonder how many times I end up numbering my points when I really don't need to ... *shrugs* oh well
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TC
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Post by TC on Feb 1, 2007 18:44:23 GMT -5
Well, would you look at that? This has surely been a speedy transformation, from what I've seen. What's even more amusing to me is that you've changed so quickly even after having been such a big skeptic. I mean, I've seen bigger skeptics, but then again, they never changed their minds, even in the least.
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darkerside
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Post by darkerside on Feb 1, 2007 18:57:55 GMT -5
As far as changing my mind goes. I don't know if it's belief as much as it is hope. I mean, I HOPE it's real, but my beliefs are still iffy. Unfortunately, I haven't gotten the pencil to move any more since last night, so I have to say I'm not entirely convinced. Don't think that'll stop me from trying though. The reason I picked the pencil under those conditions were to try and get reliable results. The mechanical pencil I'm using is a high quality one, weighing about three times as much as an ordinary pencil, so it's more resistant to environmental changes, but I set it up in such an unstable position that it really doesn't take much force to move it.
Hope I actually do get more results.......
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TC
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Post by TC on Feb 1, 2007 20:09:17 GMT -5
I sure hope you do too.
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darkerside
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Post by darkerside on Feb 8, 2007 2:11:43 GMT -5
Haven't gotten the pencil to move again. Either it was just a poltergeist, or I'm going insane.
Something else has been bugging me, and that's the people who try to play psychic games over the INTERNET. Honestly, I don't see how that could work at all. There is no way you could get a psychic signature from someone across the country just from a little information posted on a chat room. It boggles my mind how these people try to send thoughts across distances upwards of 1000 miles to strange people they've never actually been in proximity with. As with my last question about the nuts who claim to be able to find people's wallets over the internet, I'm thinking that it might all be in their heads. What makes this seem more alarming to me is that I've seen articles and seminars posted which rely on psychic transmission over the internet.
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neveza
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Post by neveza on Feb 8, 2007 4:30:03 GMT -5
Haven't gotten the pencil to move again. Either it was just a poltergeist, or I'm going insane. Something else has been bugging me, and that's the people who try to play psychic games over the INTERNET. Honestly, I don't see how that could work at all. There is no way you could get a psychic signature from someone across the country just from a little information posted on a chat room. It boggles my mind how these people try to send thoughts across distances upwards of 1000 miles to strange people they've never actually been in proximity with. As with my last question about the nuts who claim to be able to find people's wallets over the internet, I'm thinking that it might all be in their heads. What makes this seem more alarming to me is that I've seen articles and seminars posted which rely on psychic transmission over the internet. Psionics act sort of like radio waves, it can send and recieve. Only difference is that psi can, so far, go through anything but it's own self(under certain conditions), that it moves faster, and last longer. However, there is a problem called Analyatical Overlay or AOL, where you over analyise something and create false data. AOL is usually a problem for beginners, so through experience the problem is less.
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jaci
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Post by jaci on Feb 8, 2007 4:46:20 GMT -5
*laughs* alrighty. I'm not offended at all even though I fit the definition of someone who uses signatures/ sends over distances of 1000 + miles. Why couldn't that work? If you can explain to me what psi is exactly and why it simply can't work lke that, then go for your life. Otherwise have a bit of a look through the quantum physics area and you'll find it's not as impossible as it may sound. Everyone has a unique fingerprint. Everyone has a unique mental signature. There are articles that go into more detail about what they are exactly, from memory one is up here written by Hech. If not I'll get you a link. Edit: link- zhkyrl.brinkster.net/psionline/t_alter_signature.html
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Post by ultimarage on Feb 8, 2007 4:47:14 GMT -5
Haven't gotten the pencil to move again. Either it was just a poltergeist, or I'm going insane. Something else has been bugging me, and that's the people who try to play psychic games over the INTERNET. Honestly, I don't see how that could work at all. There is no way you could get a psychic signature from someone across the country just from a little information posted on a chat room. It boggles my mind how these people try to send thoughts across distances upwards of 1000 miles to strange people they've never actually been in proximity with. As with my last question about the nuts who claim to be able to find people's wallets over the internet, I'm thinking that it might all be in their heads. What makes this seem more alarming to me is that I've seen articles and seminars posted which rely on psychic transmission over the internet. Yes; Psi and psionic abilities have no percievable distance limit on the planet Earth anyways. You can send Psiballs to someone on the other side of the world. Same with emotions (empathy), thoughts/images/colors/shapes (telepathy).... Why do you keep on calling them nuts, or crazy people? That must mean that we're all crazy too. Check out project Stargate done by the US military. Search for it on google. Also, the Air Force has been doing intensive testing for teleportation. So far they've been able to teleport an electron; and with time they'll be able to teleport anything. There are actually a great many psychics that work with Police and FBI, and even private groups, like the one who found Elizabeth Smart. They are a group of Remote Viewers. Why would you 'hope' it is real? It is real. It's as real as gravity; as real as the sun. Do you know it's still unknown as to how a baby's heart starts beating 21 dats after conception?
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The Devil's Advocate
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Respected Member I will deflate your theories and claims with ye olde pointy stick of logic.
Est autem fides credere quod nondum vides; cuius fidei merces est videre quod credis.
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Post by The Devil's Advocate on Feb 8, 2007 11:54:46 GMT -5
Ok. Now you have hit one of MY pet peeves. Government and Psionics.
1) Frankly if the government was using Psions in any way shape or form they had plenty of time and opportunity to find me.
2) Every single commercial group I have seen that advertises or claims to do RVing for the government I have looked into has had ALL the earmarks of utter fraud. Especially the ones that claim to be former military who 'risked their careers' to make 'valuable techniques available to the public' For a fee of course. If such were true the individuals in question would be spending the rest of their natural lives in JAIL. This is part of why it's so hard to get reliable research into psionics funded. There are too many nut cases advertising the same thing for $19.95 a lesson.
3) Electrons 'tunnel' and they do it all by themselves when they change energy states. This is part of string theory and the basis of many theories in teleportation. Please do an article search on teleportation on the NASA web page. It hasn't gotten off the THEORY yet. Usually the required energy curves are the limiting factor in more than paper tests.
4) I cannot cite sources or elaborate more fully due to the same regulations that would land anyone trying what was proposed in number 2 in Ft. Leavenworth military prison.
Darkerside? My PASSIVE range (that is what I can pick up shields down not trying to do ANYTHING) is somewhere around or over 100 miles. (Indirect measurement methods responsible for error.) I can, and have, accurately scanned things on the other side of the world. I find it easier to grab a signature when I'm actively talking to someone over IM than through a forum. I actually have trouble NOT getting signatures and basic identification information while speaking with someone over IM regardless of the distance.
Psi is not limited by line of site. It is not radio waves. It actually functions only minimally like radio waves. Radio waves, vary by frequency, and are mostly line of sight or line of reflection/refraction depending on local atmospheric conditions. Proper 'aim' is required for both (think about what pointing your satellite dish the wrong way does...) But passive systems are only loosely analogous to an omnidirectional recieving antenna. Psi is not limited by 'frequency' (signature in this case) it can be limited by data type (that is someone who is an Empath may not be able to pick up telepathic data even if it is being broadcast.)
It is easier to remotly send to people with whom you are more familiar but that is hardly neccissary. As far as the limits of our own senses are concerned, Active use of psionics is more limited by the individual psi on than by distance. It appears instantaneous over terrestrial distances. But as we are limited to our own perceptions that is not necessarily the case.
You are not going insane unless the rest of us are as well. The possibility of insanity is something I have dealt with on a regular basis. So I have a few questions for you.
1) Are we asking you to do anything that would be immoral or illegal if it were done with methods other than psionics?
2) You have read many of our posts and threads, how do we approach psi?
3) Assuming Psionics was a legitimate science, how would you expect a group of amateur researchers and dabblers to behave? What kind of variation would you expect them to have in their group? How would you expect them to deal with the kooks and crazies every field attracts? How would this vary if the bulk of their membership was between 13 and 21? How do we compare with those expectations?
Basically use your own judgment. Do we sound like we are serious about exploring these observations in a rational manner or do we sound like we're trying to argue that the world is flat by denying science and cooking up conspiracy theories?
For my part I would say we are the former, which means we are not crazy. We may be wrong but we're not crazy. There are exceptions, but hey, there are people who firmly believe the world is only 6,000 years old. Psionics is such a very new field. I would ask you, as a skeptic of the field, to accept that we are NOT crazy and take us seriously. This does not mean you have to agree with us, but 'it's crazy!' is not a valid reason for something not to work. By the early understanding of the laws of Aerodynamics neither the bumblebee nor the Helicopter should fly. They both manifestly DO, and the bumblebee didn't STOP being able to fly simply because we thought it should be impossible. We don't understand how psionics works other than knowing what it DOES. So please treat this with scientific skepticism, rather than the 'I'm going to debunk the loonies' attitude that sometimes comes across in your posts, especially the earliest ones.
~The Devil's Advocate
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darkerside
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Post by darkerside on Feb 8, 2007 17:00:52 GMT -5
While I'm not saying it's impossible, it just seems like it would be extermely hard for anyone to pick up a sig from a person across the world with no more information about them than a screen name and chat messages. If it is true, I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 100. What is it? 1) Are we asking you to do anything that would be immoral or illegal if it were done with methods other than psionics? 2) You have read many of our posts and threads, how do we approach psi? 3) Assuming Psionics was a legitimate science, how would you expect a group of amateur researchers and dabblers to behave? What kind of variation would you expect them to have in their group? How would you expect them to deal with the kooks and crazies every field attracts? How would this vary if the bulk of their membership was between 13 and 21? How do we compare with those expectations? 1. I, for one, am not really hung up on the moral or legal implications of psi. I mean, I'm the one who asked about attacking. Nobody's asked anything immoral or illegal as far as I know, but that's not really what concerns me. 2. This is just me talking, but the way I'd approach it, and have been doing, is purely scientifically. Only observable and corroboratable results matter. Okay, so you can make shields and psiballs, but unless it can be sensed by somebody else with no prior knowledge, it doesn't count. If you do get results, scientific theory says it must be repeatable to be verified, so single successes (like with my pencil) prove nothing. The killer question is "how much proof do you need?". Well, I really don't know. For some people, one success might do it; for others, you could drop an object over and over and it still wouldn't COMPLETELY prove gravity. I'm not for certain how much proof is necessary for the general scientific community to accept something as fact, but obviously nobody in this field has enough, because psi still isn't considered science. 3. I would think if it was a legitimate science, there would be much less variation than I see today. The thing is, a lot of people see it as more of a spiritual thing than a scientific thing, which would definitely taint the results in the scientific sense. Hardcore scientists are hard to come by in areas like this, which is why most of the people in it are considered to be spiritual nuts. Especially people ages 13-21, there's almost guaranteed to be no scientists in there. Sorry if I came across as "gotta debunk the loonies", but there's so many of them in this field that I can't help wonder if it's just them, or if EVERYONE's lost a few marbles. But I'll tell you one thing, the crazies I do run into, I'll be on em like white on rice. I guess you could call me your equivalent for the other team. Why would you 'hope' it is real? It is real. It's as real as gravity; as real as the sun. I'm sorry, but those words don't affect me in the least. You could say the same thing about a flying spaghetti monster, and I would say the same thing to that as I'm saying now, which is "Not until I see it myself". I'm not willing to subject myself to the belief that it is real yet because that would put a serious belief bias on my experiments.
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jaci
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Post by jaci on Feb 8, 2007 20:33:38 GMT -5
You want evidence? You've obviously never picked up a parapsychology journal. Is it work in progress? Yes it is but the research is there. There are no parapsychologists here that I'm aware of but there are a number of people here over the age of 21. What makes you think none of us have science training? Anyway we've never claimed to have absolute proof of anything.
Ok because I'm sick of the *there's no evidence routine* I've pulled up a few stats for you. Yes there are things to take into account. If you want I'll dig up some of the links for you to read.
1) An analysis was done on the experiments conducted at SRI from 1973 to 1988, and contained over 26,000 individual trials. It was found that the result obtained (or results more extreme) would only occur once in every 10^20 instances due to chance. 2) A ganzfeld study from PRL (1994) had a significant result above chance with the p-value being 0.002. (In case you haven't covered stats yet, the p value is often set at about 0.05 for the result to be suggestive of significance) Hit rates similar to those obtained for this ganzfeld study have been replicated at three other laboratories.
There are more. These are just 2 I have here from memory.
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The Devil's Advocate
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Respected Member I will deflate your theories and claims with ye olde pointy stick of logic.
Est autem fides credere quod nondum vides; cuius fidei merces est videre quod credis.
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Post by The Devil's Advocate on Feb 8, 2007 22:01:53 GMT -5
The Ganzfield study results can be found in "The Journal of Parapsychology" if I remember correctly. The Journal is put out by the Rhine Institute in conjunction with Duke University. It should be available at your local library. A link has been posted repeatedly to an online article site. Look and you should find it.
13-21 is the age spread for the majority of the local membership; however, I am older than that, as are at least 3 others I can think of off the top of my head. (7 years military service as of January and a year of college before that for me. You do the math.)
I am a Geology major. Which means I'm used to taking OBSERVATIONAL data rather than instrumental readings and turning it into solid information. I am NOT an experienced research scientist. I have not had the field experience in geology; however, I have been a professional linguist and AM a professional analyst, which means I can extrapolate and interpolate data. It's part of my JOB outside of college.
The questions I asked were intended to make THIS point: We, as a group, are not Professionals. What do you expect out of a VOLUNTEER society of AMATEURS? Some of us, like myself, have training in science and analysis. We are NOT professionals. We are the psionic equivalent of a science club. This means we can use good logic, and good method, but we do NOT have the experience of PhD research scientists. It also means we do not have the EQUIPMENT or RESOURCES of actual science labs. Which means we can do small entry level studies, and encourage other people to do the same. We also seem to be one of the few groups that researches psionics NOT from a perspective of proving it exists, but from the internal perspective of practitioners. This is an important perspective. There are many people researching psionics from the outside in, but to get an accurate perspective of a thing you have to have internal as well as external data. The research externally has been going on since at LEAST 1934. Yes, we are a new field, but all new fields have to start somewhere. This actually isn’t all that different from how geology first got its start as a science. By, the By… Geology isn’t all that much older than Psionics as a science. You just can’t ignore the rock that hits you in the head and call it a figment of your imagination.
~The Devil's Advocate
Quote: It's only a flesh wound! I'm not dead yet! Come back here! I'll Bite your Ankles off!
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TC
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Post by TC on Feb 8, 2007 22:17:03 GMT -5
Sorry, don't have much to say until I do some research, but I really like where this conversation is going. So much science being used to relate to psionics... it just makes me smile. I'll edit this when I have something to add.
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jaci
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Post by jaci on Feb 9, 2007 6:53:55 GMT -5
*laughs at the random quote* I guess I should've picked you for a monty python fan. Anyway back to the topic.
Darkeside if you don't want to read, maybe try watching the elegant universe (I'm serious its an interesting show). It's avaliable free on line. It's not on parapsychology but it gives you an idea of just how odd the universe probably is compared to most people's perceptions. You keep making a lot of generalisations that are not necisarily fact and at regular intervals revert to calling us potential "loonies" without doing your research first.
Nothing is proven beyond doubt in this area, but there is not a total lack of supporting evidence for it either which most "skeptics" seem to assume. I don't mind people comming in here questioning this stuff. A bit of skepticism can be a healthy thing, but throwing insults around is not and it gets old really quickly.
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