darkerside
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Post by darkerside on Jan 23, 2007 23:44:19 GMT -5
Hello there. I'm what some communities wold call a Non; that is, someone who doesn't practice this stuff. I've been reading a lot about psionics, looking at the various communities, and reading articles lately, but to me it seems like everything involved is in your head. So, I have three major questions about its validity.
1. In one of the psionics communities I visited (PsiPog, i think), they have this forum where people post that they've lost something (wallet, ipod, car keys) along with information about the object and themselves, and the psychics try to find them with "remote viewing". Now, when I looked at these threads, the content is about as bad as with that John Edwards guy on TV who talks to dead people. Things like "I see a woman, and a white car", or "I'm getting a reading, someone you know, name starts with the letter....M?". This is a technique called cold reading, which has been scientifically proven to make believe in psychic influence without any real paranormal involvement. The question I have about this is, if these are the SAME PEOPLE that post their bullshit "psychic findings" who also believe that it's caused by psionics, wouldn't that mean that the rest of their psionic results might all be in their head?
2. I saw some shielding topics on this forum where people were talking about how they used shields. Some people said if they don't keep themselves shielded, they may get attacked. I myself have never been psychically "attacked" in my life, and I can't say that many other Nons have either. If these attacks only happen to people who believe in this stuff, wouldn't that mean these perceived attacks are also in your head?
3. Why is empathy considered psychic? All I see empathy being is a natural feeling of being emotionally in-tune with other people by subconsciously reading cues such as their body language, tone, and personality, not anything paranormal.
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The Devil's Advocate
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Respected Member I will deflate your theories and claims with ye olde pointy stick of logic.
Est autem fides credere quod nondum vides; cuius fidei merces est videre quod credis.
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Post by The Devil's Advocate on Jan 24, 2007 0:17:28 GMT -5
I can answer pretty much all of these from personal experience, but it all boils down to you taking someone's word. More on that in the conclusion. 1) Most of the people doing that are not the ones writing articles. I, personally, have refused to 'find someone's wallet. Why? If I can't 100% accurately find my friends locations with RV then how am I going to find a stranger's wallet? We had such a thread on this site. They went elsewhere. The best way to check is to read the posts someone makes, and then read the articles. I also recommend reading the Journal of Parapsychology, which is put out by the Rhine Center in conjunction with Duke University. They have a great deal of information that is not from the perspective of the actual psions. 2) I spent 17 years getting attacked, but not knowing I was a psion. Belief is not a requirement for getting attacked. It may be a requirement for realizing you are being attacked however. It has taken practice to sort out the more subtle attacks from a simple tension headache. The other side of this is most psions don't bother to attack Nons overtly because they're not likely to get the reaction they want out of them. Once you are a practicing psion your chances of making enemies who CAN attack you are increased. You're not likely to get in a bar fight if you never go into the bar. I am one of the ones who shields all the time. Though for me it is more a matter of not getting overwhelmed than it is getting attacked, though that has become more increasingly important. (Note on this: I'm not sure WHY the original attacks occurred, and they were by people I couldn't just walk up to and go 'oh by the by, old chap, would you mind telling me why you were so intent on ruining my day with that attack? It really would be quite civilized of you to lay off it is getting quite bothersome.') 3) This is, in some ways, something that must be experience. I am a natural empath, in the psionic as well as Medical sense and here are some of the differences I have noticed: Medical 'empathy' doesn't give you migraines. It also doesn't tell you when your room mate just blew their top from the other room and through a door and two walls. It doesn't tell you your supervisor is lying through his teeth when everyone else, and your own reading of his body language says he SHOULD be telling the truth. Medical Empathy doesn't leave you practically in tears when tempers in a room suddenly escalate, wanting to literally pound your head against a wall just to make them all get OUT of your head. Medical Empathy doesn't leave you sensitive to every single person within a 100 mile radius. It doesn't interfere with your ability to take tests when you usually don't have trouble with them. I could go on and on... but I have a few articles on the topic. As mentioned before, this is from the perspective of an empath with a VERY wide range. Psionic empathy does all this and more. It gives a level of detail that Medical Empathy doesn't. It is also much harder to resolve down to an individual without practice than Medical Empathy. I spent about 17 years trying to convince myself that what IS psionic Empathy was just me having 'great force of personality' or 'being good at reading people.' Personal note: I am in psionics because it's that or I'm bound for a little rubber room with one of those funny jackets that make you hug yourself, and frankly I don't like me enough to hug me that much (*to be read with note of dry humor*). My earliest recollection that I can definitively correlate with psi was age 8. Before that I cannot conclusively say one way or the other. I did not acknowledge that I was a Psion until I was 25. I had friends trying to nudge me, but would have none of it. What convinced me was when one of them WITHOUT telling me anything about what was happening, put up a strong shield around me. There was a silence on a level that I cannot honestly say I have experienced outside of standing in a tiny handful of locations. Just for the Record: The core assumption of this site is that psionics ARE real, so asking us to prove it to you is rather pointless. The questions you have asked have NOT been in any way out of line, just making certain you are aware of the structure and base precepts of the site. Skepticism is welcome as long as it is constructive. I just ask that you keep this in mind. It is always good to have someone willing to prod us into looking for the mundane rather than the psionic. If you have any more specific questions, by all means ask, but I think this is enough to digest in one post. I encourage you to read the forums in detail. ~The Devil's Advocate Note: Modified for spelling and to clarify a statement.
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Post by ultimarage on Jan 24, 2007 1:41:40 GMT -5
Also; don't confuse the word 'attack' as a physical attack. Someone may be trying to overload you with emotion, mess with your flow of psi, or even steal your psi for their own purposes. If you're not a psion or born sensitive to psi, then you wouldn't notice something like that.
You also must remember that most everything you read, someone is writing about personal experiences. You're not going to believe until you actually try to do something.
Search for project stargate. The military has been using Remote Viewing for over 30 years. Also; those who have tried to remote view area 51 have never been able to succeed.
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darkerside
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Post by darkerside on Jan 24, 2007 2:03:45 GMT -5
Devil's Advocate, eh? Isn't the devil's advocate supposed to be the one who argues AGAINST the supernatural? I have to say that I don't personally know any psychics (and even if I do, I'd probably neverknow it. I can see how this sort of thing would get weird looks from other people if they talked about it.), so I guess I really can't be "shown" the way. I tried a few starter exercises from PsiPog, but nothing ever happened. One last thing: Of all the places I've been to, none of them allow discussion of combat, only shielding. Attacking is as much a part this field as defending, so why does nobody care to discuss it? It's as if these places derive their ideals from the famous movies, like Star Wars (Jedi can't learn the Dark Side, only how to deal with it) or Harry Potter (wizards shouldn't learn the dark arts, only defense against the dark arts). Or am I just evil for being interested in the attacking part?
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Post by ultimarage on Jan 24, 2007 2:06:39 GMT -5
Basically, you can talk about defending yourself from attacks. They don't want you asking how to do an attack.
Also, most of the time, first time practice isn't going to cut it. It does take a litttle time depending on the person.
Peebrain, the maker of psipog, was once MUCH more of a skeptic than you were. He has a blog somewhere explaining his journey from skeptic to non-skeptic.
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neveza
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Post by neveza on Jan 24, 2007 3:04:27 GMT -5
Darkerside, psipog caters to the beginners. Attacking isn't something beginners shouldn't have experience\knowledge in if they can't even make a simple energy construct such as a psiball. Also some people on the internet aren't very intellegent to trust with such knowledge.
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The Devil's Advocate
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Respected Member I will deflate your theories and claims with ye olde pointy stick of logic.
Est autem fides credere quod nondum vides; cuius fidei merces est videre quod credis.
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Post by The Devil's Advocate on Jan 24, 2007 6:48:45 GMT -5
The Devil's Advocate is suposed to find the holes and flaws in any argument. (Not something that always makes me popular.)
The offensive tactics are easy enough to figure out from most of the other methods we do discuss. But the avoidance of combat also avoids us having to deal with the people who go "I WANNA BLAST YOU WITH A PSIBALL!!!!" or the people who come in and ask how to kill with psi. We have a great many newbies here, and deffense is usually taught before offense. Basically the rule exists because we don't want to advocate something that could, realistically, get someone hurt.
We also have a great deal of very young individuals on this site and on most psionics sites. There are several who have come through here, that I would NOT want learning how to actually harm others with psi, because theyWOULD because it was 'funny' or because of the 'if I have the power to I should use it' bully attitude. Also the feel of a place changes completely when you allow actual combat and combat discussions. Also it is a small step between TEACHING combat and ADVOCATING combat. And the line is blurry in most places. It is easier to avoid it and deal with all the negative ramifications of alowing it.
Note: I have been in many fights, both physical and psionically. We're not the military, we just don't want to be responsible for some idiot hurting someone (provable by law or NOT.) because we had attack methods he used just a little too well.
~The Devil's Advocate
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innerfire
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Post by innerfire on Jan 26, 2007 20:23:01 GMT -5
I know some of these have been answered but just to assist I'd like to give my thoughts Hello there. I'm what some communities wold call a Non; that is, someone who doesn't practice this stuff. I've been reading a lot about psionics, looking at the various communities, and reading articles lately, but to me it seems like everything involved is in your head. So, I have three major questions about its validity. 1. In one of the psionics communities I visited (PsiPog, i think), they have this forum where people post that they've lost something (wallet, ipod, car keys) along with information about the object and themselves, and the psychics try to find them with "remote viewing". Now, when I looked at these threads, the content is about as bad as with that John Edwards guy on TV who talks to dead people. Things like "I see a woman, and a white car", or "I'm getting a reading, someone you know, name starts with the letter....M?". This is a technique called cold reading, which has been scientifically proven to make believe in psychic influence without any real paranormal involvement. The question I have about this is, if these are the SAME PEOPLE that post their bullshit "psychic findings" who also believe that it's caused by psionics, wouldn't that mean that the rest of their psionic results might all be in their head? 2. I saw some shielding topics on this forum where people were talking about how they used shields. Some people said if they don't keep themselves shielded, they may get attacked. I myself have never been psychically "attacked" in my life, and I can't say that many other Nons have either. If these attacks only happen to people who believe in this stuff, wouldn't that mean these perceived attacks are also in your head? 3. Why is empathy considered psychic? All I see empathy being is a natural feeling of being emotionally in-tune with other people by subconsciously reading cues such as their body language, tone, and personality, not anything paranormal. 1. No group of things or people is entirely alike, there's some people that really believe they're doing something and yet have made a mistake somewhere, there's some people that are obviously lying to screw with people, and there are those who can do things, and theres an infinte amount of combinations inbetween. I can assure you it gives us as many headaches or more than it does you 2. Well first is a lot of it is what DA said about psychics being "better targets" for attacks. If someone want's more energy, a psychic typically generates a great deal more than a non, if someone wants to screw with someone, a psychic is almost gaurenteed to be more sensitive. Also it is nearly impossible to tell how many nons are attacked as they would probably attribute an attack to something their mind had knowledge of, like they might just assume that really bad headache was random, or a muscular sore was just "sleeping wrong." Now I'll be the first to admit that most of the time this stuff is just that, but there is still sometimes where it is the cause of an attack. There's explanations for how psionics can cause something that feel like these things, but I don't think its necessary to go into them. Anyways, my point is that if someone that has no knowledge of psychic abilities experiences an attack, what do you think they're going to do? It is far more likely that they will assume that its just some random physical problem since that is the more likely explantation, people don't tend to blame something that they don't even know exists. 3. DA is much more qualified to answer that stuff so I think I'll leave her explanation as enough. One last thing: Of all the places I've been to, none of them allow discussion of combat, only shielding. Attacking is as much a part this field as defending, so why does nobody care to discuss it? It's as if these places derive their ideals from the famous movies, like Star Wars (Jedi can't learn the Dark Side, only how to deal with it) or Harry Potter (wizards shouldn't learn the dark arts, only defense against the dark arts). Or am I just evil for being interested in the attacking part? Aside from the explanation given, PsiPog has something in their history that prompted that rule (I'd like to say more but I literally don't know, there's some stuff about that community that people won't go into, so when I asked they gave me as much as I just told you ). The other thing is the whole newbie-geared thing, new people just don't need to know that stuff, and its a lot either to blanket-rule "we don't talk about that," then it is to explain to a 13 year old that they don't need to know that. Attacks really aren't that hard to come up with, people don't need too much help with it. Some communities I believe do go into it (hopefully more under the idea that knowledge of attacks does make better shields), but for the reasons mentioned they keep it low key and restricted to members that the communty leaders think are sufficiently experienced to treat the situation maturely.
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darkerside
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Post by darkerside on Jan 28, 2007 1:00:54 GMT -5
Ugh, fifth day of practice and still nothing. I feel like such a lunatic trying this stuff, like I should be wearing that strait jacket(On another note, this is not something I'll be telling anyone I know about, since they'd probably ask my size and get me one). Ever since I escaped from an episode of Catholic brainwashing, I've never trusted anything that can't be backed by science. I have the subconscious belief that it isn't real, and that may actually MAKE it not real as far as my mind goes practicing.
Also, Peebrain said he thinks anyone can do this stuff. What if that's not true? You probably never hear from the people it DOESN'T work out for, becuse they simply leave the site. Just like there are some people born with mental retardation, maybe there are some people born with psychic retardation.
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Post by ultimarage on Jan 28, 2007 1:23:43 GMT -5
The only reason that you would be unable to perform any of this would be your own skepticism and mental blocks. You still refuse to believe - and you have to get over that before you're going to get ANY results. Sounds impossible for you right now, but that's how it works. Your mind is blocking your progress since it thinks it can't do it from your negative approach to psionics.
It's very apparent that you want to learn, but you need to get over yourself. You probably know some people who practice this stuff, but they don't tell anyone because of the same fears you have.
It's not that Peebrain thinks that, it's more like, that's the truth. You're greatly hindering your progress with those thoughts, since these are skills of the mind. If you keep the same subconsious belief, then you will never, ever progress.
Get over the belief that you have to be crazy to do this.
America harbors the majority of the world's close minded population. In other countries, everything we practice here is a little more accepted.
Do you know what acupuncture is? It deals with correcting the body's flow of psi by affecting certain pressure points all over the body. You have to get a degree to be an acupuncturist.
Did you search for project Stargate yet? It's a military program which taught military personnel to view events at any distance with their minds. Is the military crazy then? Yeah, a little, but that's beside the point.
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neveza
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Post by neveza on Jan 28, 2007 9:08:51 GMT -5
Ugh, fifth day of practice and still nothing. I feel like such a lunatic trying this stuff, like I should be wearing that strait jacket(On another note, this is not something I'll be telling anyone I know about, since they'd probably ask my size and get me one). Ever since I escaped from an episode of Catholic brainwashing, I've never trusted anything that can't be backed by science. I have the subconscious belief that it isn't real, and that may actually MAKE it not real as far as my mind goes practicing. Also, Peebrain said he thinks anyone can do this stuff. What if that's not true? You probably never hear from the people it DOESN'T work out for, becuse they simply leave the site. Just like there are some people born with mental retardation, maybe there are some people born with psychic retardation. You sure you're not making one and looking for something different than what you're feeling? It's possibly, people overlook feelings because of other information on the internet. Sensitivity plays a great deal, so practicing will only help that. Psychic retardation, I won't doubt the possibility since nobody knows how it psionics truely works. I disagree with most of Ultimarage last post, Just keep practicing. List all the feelings when doing psiballs and keep comparing them. If you're really having problems, post what you're doing to achieve and we could try and help.
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The Devil's Advocate
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Respected Member I will deflate your theories and claims with ye olde pointy stick of logic.
Est autem fides credere quod nondum vides; cuius fidei merces est videre quod credis.
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Post by The Devil's Advocate on Jan 28, 2007 11:29:12 GMT -5
Actually, in other countries, what we practice are NOT widely accepted, just a bit more widely studdied. You just get labled 'eccentric' rather than 'crazy'. (Note: at least in Britain 'eccentric' Essentially means 'amusingly crazy' in the coloquial.)
Darkerside, I do know the feeling. I spent about 17 years in denial. But please, also consider that science admits it doesn't know everything. You have a large community here. We are either all crazy, or there is SOMETHING actually going on here. We call it Psi. This does not make it 'unnatural' or 'outside the relms of science'. So consider this practice of yours a scientific experiment, rather than a step into the supernatural. It might make it easier for you to approach it.
~The Devil's Advocate
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darkerside
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Post by darkerside on Jan 28, 2007 21:09:52 GMT -5
We are either all crazy, or there is SOMETHING actually going on here. I was actually inclined to believe the former after showing the precognition experiment to be rigged. After all, there are probably more Scientologists out there than psions, and I really do think those people are all crazy. The thing that really makes me think it might be 'all in your head' is that you need to believe in it BEFORE you can do anything with it. I mean, you don't need to believe in gravity to trip and fall on your face, and you don't need to believe the world is round to fly around it.
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TC
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Post by TC on Jan 28, 2007 23:09:32 GMT -5
You also have no control over gravity, darkerside. Now, assuming that psionics is real, psi would be under your control, and therefore would require belief where something out of your control would not. If you're free falling from a plane without a parachute, you can believe you're not there all you want, but the fact is that you're about to hit the ground. Psionics is completely different, and is in your control if you want it to be.
Think about this "belief" thing. Everything we accomplish, psionics related or not, originates completely from a hope or belief that we have. You can bet your bottom dollar that Thomas Edison wouldn't have invented the lightbulb, had he not believed he could do it.
If you've ever taken a highschool or college course, you will note that in order to pass "that" certain class, you will need a level of belief that you can do it. If you don't believe you can do something, it's not going to happen. This would apply even more strongly in psionics, and I'll tell you why.
Psi, and a lot of things we do with it, occurs on more of a mental level than a physical. Telepathy occurs on a mental level, and it is completely intangible, as well as empathy. Now, assuming that there are many processes happening in order to perform telepathy and empathy, then a lot of other mental states must have some sort of influence on your performance in telepathy or empathy, or even psi and telekinesis. One of these is mental blocks. That's why belief is so much stronger. Because, like so many things in psi, it's also on a mental level, and therefore, each interact with each other in some way.
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The Devil's Advocate
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Respected Member I will deflate your theories and claims with ye olde pointy stick of logic.
Est autem fides credere quod nondum vides; cuius fidei merces est videre quod credis.
Posts: 1,552
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Post by The Devil's Advocate on Jan 29, 2007 0:42:27 GMT -5
Actually, Darkerside, psi DOES affect some people without belief. I have said in SEVERAL of my responses to you that I was in denial for 17 years. 17 years where I DID NOT believe that Psi was anything outside of a science fiction novel. 17 years. Think about it. In that 17 years being a natural empath, having everyone else's emotions shoved up my nose very literally nearly killed me. I still have the knife as a reminder as to the road I could have taken if I didn't learn to shield when I did. Not everyone has that dramatic a story. Most people don't. Most of the kids here come to it because it is fun, because it's new and interesting. Me? I come here because I have a reminder in solid steel of what denial is. I have a reminder in my mother of what can happen if you go the psychiatrist route.
I have learned to recognize the difference between severe empathic overload and actual madness. I have learned to recognize the difference between mild empathic overload and depression. I can lessen and increase my shields to remind me that yes I'm not just imagining all this. I can talk to people indpendant of this forum who are quite sane, or at least legally sane, who confirm my perceptions. The more I explore my options, the more I discover how common psions actually are. They just don't advertise.
I STRONGLY recomend you go to your local library and look up "The Journal of Parapsychology" That is the name of the magazine. It is published by the Rhine Institute and Duke university. It is considered a legitimate research magazine. Look it up. Look up the books their references. There is more materiel out there than their seems to be.
~The Devil's Advocate
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