The Devil's Advocate
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Respected Member I will deflate your theories and claims with ye olde pointy stick of logic.
Est autem fides credere quod nondum vides; cuius fidei merces est videre quod credis.
Posts: 1,552
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Post by The Devil's Advocate on Apr 5, 2008 9:12:19 GMT -5
So now you're a psychologist or neurologist? Congratulations on the PhD. *dripping sarcasm* Dreaming is not projecting ANYTHING anywhere. Actually do some research on the subject. Dreaming, according to most of the education sites I could find and the researchers there, is the brain 'winding down'. Dreaming occures in 'REM sleep' at which point the brain is 'almost awake'. You're essentially daydreaming except on autopilot. Are you saying you actually project every time you mind wanders? Hardly. You're stretching for this Goliath. And YOU spend a couple decades getting chased and hunted by nasties from the Astral and see how you like it. That's like saying 'oh you guys are just cowards becuse you don't want to go dive into a hole in the ice sheet in Antarctica naked just to see what's there! Never mind your survival time for such an escapade would be less than 3 min. References: web.mst.edu/~psyworld/sleep_stages.htmfaculty.washington.edu/chudler/sleep.htmlwww.nightterrors.org/www.chw.edu.au/parents/factsheets/nightmares_and_night_terrors.htm~The Devil's Advocate
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Post by psionicstorm on Apr 5, 2008 16:34:33 GMT -5
Think about it goliath.. what happens when you dream? your body/subconscious goes through all the old thoughts and picks out whatever it wants in a deep sleep. what happens when you astrally project? I guess the general theory that actually makes sense is that you are putting a piece of your mind on a different plane, which, if it is an "anything goes" plane, probably has most of the creatures ever imagined by people. And not everything that people imagine is a genie or unicorn. So lets say that you "pull out" of the astral plane when you "die" there, or something bad happens. How do you know that that piece of you wasn't left behind? And if it wasnt left behind, whatever hurt you there can <i> probably </i> still hurt you psionically. In general, its not that safe. Learn as much as you can, leave APing until you get more experienced. Sorry if i assume too much, but i do believe that i'm going off of popular assumptions and ideas about the astral plane. ~Psionicstorm I think its funny how everyone here is so scared to astral project and their like shitting their pants over it. The only parts that even get close to scaring me is the exit of the body. Sleeping...is projecting because of the following. You say that when we sleep it is random parts of our sub-conscious comes out and we just kinda linger around in it. But what is the sub-conscious? The sub-conscious is here and now, it's what links our actions together. When you stand up, you dont think of all the actions that is required to do so, you just do it. When you hit a hockey puck, throw a ball, it starts to get sub-conscious. It's the chain of actions that happens only then. You can't pull out old memories out of the sub-conscious considering time doesnt effect the sub-conscious. The conscious mind is the one that deals with that. The sub-conscious is here and now, almost as what we define as "instinct". Yes, it is true that the sub-conscious is stronger when you sleep-project (aka lucid dreaming) and your conscious is stronger when you manually project (aka astral projection), but other then that theres physically no difference. Now let me requote part of that Nowhere did you even try to explain why it was similar, except in the last sentence when you totally go off on a tangent that you didnt even set a foundation for. ~psionicstorm P.S. - Its becoming increasingly harder to keep a civil tone with you. Also, please limit your swearing on the forums.
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Post by goliath797 on Apr 6, 2008 8:31:43 GMT -5
I swore once. I think.
Im not even gonna bother anymore because people here are so...centered on one thought. You guys dont bend and are like a dictatorship under one person. People who try/experience new things, it may be bad, may be good, whatever. Try talking to the people who have projected. Even better, talk to the psychologists who project, done research, experiments, wrote freaking books about it. Most of us here are just aged 30 or below that are going based on our own experiences, or research done. Research can't always be true, and experiences only take us so far. Its up to whoever else wanders in this thread to try it out for themselves.
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Post by psionicstorm on Apr 6, 2008 10:17:33 GMT -5
First off, you went down the wrong path with your first sentence. It should have been something along the lines of "oh my, people are offended? let me DO something", instead of "oh its not that bad". If people are complaining, then its bad enough. I know for a fact that confuded complained in a different thread.
Do you know why i said what i did in my previous post? Its because you're assuming way too much about how things work, with APs. Maybe if you were going with OBEs, which i believe are substantially different from APs to make a difference. Also, i've looked at your posts elsewhere, and theyve made a difference in how i treat you. You seemed to be obsessed with AP-ing from what i've gathered recently, and after everyone gives you safe advice you start calling them a bunch of pansies. Is that any way to act on a forum?
I suggest that this thread either be gas-chambered if it wont go anywhere or thrown into D&D if we're going to have an actual mature discussion with proper reasoning.
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Post by goliath797 on Apr 16, 2008 15:45:24 GMT -5
Ok number 1. I am not obsessed with APing, it's just that no one here has heard of it, and i am trying to bring it alive for a new subject in life. Its like a revolution 2. Turns out i was wrong about APing while sleeping, you do not go to the astral plane specifically, but your astral body (aka spirit/w.e the hell you wanna call it) wanders around doing god knows what. 3. Yes i assume, but of course assuming gets things going doesnt it? If we didnt assume anything, we would be back at square 1 at how things work eh? We had to assume, to prove, if proving failed, we have a different assumption. To try to prove, you need to prove something. And hey... "Sorry if i assume too much, but i do believe that i'm going off of popular assumptions and ideas about the astral plane. ~Psionicstorm" Wasn't that what you said? dont even go back and edit that, that'll be "pansy" 4. DA, I got some of it wrong, i am not gonna lie. I did more research on this. But i never said that daydreaming means projecting. Also, when did i say i was a psychologist? Or a neurologist? I was going based on what i knew. I will tell the truth here and now, I was wrong with some of it, but i also believe that you guys are wrong with parts of it too. Nobody knows everything, nobody ever will know everything. Quick edit : What i want to include in the daydreaming bit, is that daydreaming and dreaming are 2 totally different things. 5. "and after everyone gives you safe advice you start calling them a bunch of pansies. Is that any way to act on a forum?" Safe advice? Keep thinking that. More like all out flames. Also, to sum it all up. I DO realize i started this flame war by provoking you guys. But truly, how many of you have ACTUALLY projected into the astral plane ITSELF, encountered astral beings that actually hurt you in some way? Trust me, go start doing some research, i have never once heard of ANYONE being hurt in a projection of any sort. Another quick edit I cant really say that i have any credible background on them, never really having been there. Because of that, i cant really answer any questions about them, because i really havent developed my own theories about them, and i just go based off of what could exist. It could be that everything people imagine up goes to the astral, and everything that used to be real goes to the ethereal, which seems to be what i'm leaning towards. quoted from "astral beings" Well then...
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innerfire
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Post by innerfire on Apr 16, 2008 23:02:33 GMT -5
Also, to sum it all up. I DO realize i started this flame war by provoking you guys. But truly, how many of you have ACTUALLY projected into the astral plane ITSELF, encountered astral beings that actually hurt you in some way? Trust me, go start doing some research, i have never once heard of ANYONE being hurt in a projection of any sort. DA and other friends of mine (who don't talk to each other) have observed and experienced that astral beings can hurt people. Even the one that still does Astral Projection acknowledges that it's dangerous (albeit this was a while ago, not sure whether he still does it). I've been attacked by astral-related things even though I've never projected. Stuff came here and found me. And oh yeah, I've yet to hear anyone give a tangible benefit for AP beyond the notion that it's fun. So: there's no reason at all for me to want to try. And if someone can be attacked by astral entities on this plane, that also lends to the idea that they can do damage during astral projection.
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The Devil's Advocate
Author
Respected Member I will deflate your theories and claims with ye olde pointy stick of logic.
Est autem fides credere quod nondum vides; cuius fidei merces est videre quod credis.
Posts: 1,552
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Post by The Devil's Advocate on Apr 16, 2008 23:26:29 GMT -5
You failed to register the dripping sarcasm, goliath.
I don't know about you, but I can pretty categorically say that I don't do anything astral while I dream, either going there or just wandering about in an astral form (that I don't have).
The only reason I haven't astrally projected is because I can get all the information I need without actually going there and putting myself at a position of great disadvantage. You may dismiss psionicstorm for 'lack of experience', but there are more than just me saying this for him to have gotten HIS information. He has not shown himself to make rash or ill informed posts thus far.
How much have YOU dealt with the astral, Goliath? Have you fought the creatures from there? Have you sealed up rifts between there and here? Have you cleaned up the damaging affects around people's shields that comes from an unnaturally high concentration of Astral Energy? Have you watched a fascination with the Astral take a dear friend and turn him into your worst enemy? Warp his personality until even his signature is unrecognizeable if you didn't have the whole process? Have you followed the creatures that attacked you back to their home to make sure they STAY there? And done it all without leaving the secure anchor of your mind and body? Have you had the snot kicked out of you becuase they came at you so subtly you didn't notice the build up? Can you detect the subtle interactions between the Astral and our normal existance? I have.
Have you had to clean up the mess from idiots who took the astral too lightly and got themselves and everyone around them in over their heads? I have... and my sources have even more than I.
You're not bringing up anything at all new. We've heard of Astral Projection, and rejected it as a very BAD idea. Very big difference, one you have utterly failed to appreciate.
~The Devil's Advocate
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Post by wolfdancer on Apr 16, 2008 23:33:06 GMT -5
I have been there. I found it as fascinating as fire...and just as dangerous.
Having lived for many years with a sleep disorder (Narcolepsy), I have done through research into the sleep process and what happens at the various stages of sleep. I have seen what the computers can record of my mental activity while I sleep and how it compares to others. No where did I find any evidence of astral projection as a part of that.
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Post by goliath797 on Apr 17, 2008 16:38:09 GMT -5
I have seen what the computers can record of my mental activity while I sleep and how it compares to others. No where did I find any evidence of astral projection as a part of that. Yes i just said that sleeping was not astral projecting, found that. Also, Im starting to get interested here DA. You can close rifts between planes? What else can you do? I may be wrong about the astral being harmless, but hey, whos word do i take. The dozens of people i know that project and even say that its safe, safe to the point where they teach more people how to do it, or one internet forum where i dont even know they are somewhat of a significant educated mind. Ill do more into the astral, and once i get a lot more done, i'll come back to debate about this. After this post gets replied to, i'm done talking about it here.
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TC
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Formerly known as Yokusa
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Post by TC on May 25, 2008 1:41:07 GMT -5
I noticed that no one decided to respond to Goliath's last post, and perhaps that was on purpose. Some may consider this resurrecting a thread, but since I don't get a chance to get on here that often anymore, I figured people could cut me a little bit of slack. I kinda posted on this thread and then disappeared, and that's really not fair to Goliath or anyone that might have responded as a result of my post.
To be honest, I kinda think both sides of this argument have made a couple of mistakes, some much larger than others. Here's the way I see it.
People who oppose Goliath. On one hand I have to say that I can understand where he's coming from, to a very small extent. That, however, does not mean I agree with what he has been saying, I simply can understand where he's coming from with his ideas. Goliath, if I'm not mistaken, I'd say that you're trying to be a "pioneer" in the feld of astral projection. You want to explore something that hasn't been extensively explored. I can understand that, and I'm sure we all can because we're all doing it right now with psionics. I understand that you may be interested. Here's the catch. Don't expect people to jump off the bridge just because you're doing it. If you want to take risks and explore something you know little to nothing about, none of us can stop you. But don't drag us into your experiments, and don't ask us about something if you don't want our advice in the first place.
People, the physical plane that we all live in right this very moment is full of dangerous entities. Dangerous people, dangerous happenings, and dangerous psions. Danger is all around us and can strike us down at any moment. We try to avoid danger as much as possible. Goliath, this is what WE'RE trying to do. Perhaps you want to be brave and explore the unknown. We cannot stop you. But that doesn't make us cowards. It makes us safe and more stress-free and danger-free. The astral is just as dangerous as our own plane. Some say it's more dangerous. Relatively, I'm willing to bet it's because we have not attained an equilibrium inside the astral, and don't know its workings inside out like we do with the physical plane.
So here's the deal Goliath. You asked, we answered. Accept what we have advised and do with it what you will. I can appreciate your desire and curiosity. I don't support it. I can't remember where this came from, but I'm positive I read the essay it's from: "One step of uncertainty can lead you into another world. It can also lead you off a cliff." It went something like that.
Psionline is NOT a dictatorship. It's actually a well-knit community, and the Golden Rule very much rules a lot of our standards, at least mine. Goliath, treat others the way you want to be treated. I'm not sure you treated others the way you'd like us to treat you. You struck hard, and a lot of members struck back just as hard, which is the only thing you can and should expect. I hold you in no lower respect, but I think you've learned your lesson.
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Post by leodragon on May 27, 2008 9:57:57 GMT -5
DA and other friends of mine (who don't talk to each other) have observed and experienced that astral beings can hurt people. Even the one that still does Astral Projection acknowledges that it's dangerous (albeit this was a while ago, not sure whether he still does it). I've been attacked by astral-related things even though I've never projected. Stuff came here and found me. And oh yeah, I've yet to hear anyone give a tangible benefit for AP beyond the notion that it's fun. So: there's no reason at all for me to want to try. And if someone can be attacked by astral entities on this plane, that also lends to the idea that they can do damage during astral projection. The dangers are purely mental and are completely avoidable. There are MANY benefits to astral projection. Due to the fact that time and space exist operates differently, if at all on the Astral Plane, such skills as pre cognition and post cognition get such a tremendous boost that you actually get a type of virtual reality projection into the scenario. There is the benefit of communication which goes deeper than advanced telepathy. Say I am Canada and someone is in Arizona. I could astral project and set up a type of landscape in the astral for us to meet. If the person knows the signature of that place, they can instantly project there. This can serve as a meeting point, or we could simply project to each other. This can serve as a type of deeper, full bodied communication for whatever reasons. Heck, since one is existing on the purely mental level, a person can set up a psionic practice ring, LOL. I explained before that telepathy, empathy, and other perception based skills, from my experience and research, seem to lie outside of time and space and are linked to the phenomenon of entanglement. The exchange of information between two particles, such as photons, when an opposite spatial orientation is placed upon them suggest the existence of hidden variables or that the information is being exchanged through a non spatial non temporal extra dimensional domain. You guy's can connect the dots or make your own opinion, but by using or having psionic skills, one is already half way in the astral. That is how they are able to attack you when you are not projecting. You can not physically be hurt in the astral, and if you are attacked, project away, or abort the projection and shut off the input function, done deal. This paranoia about the Astral Plane from people who have not been there is ridiculas. You can close rifts between planes? What else can you do? It isn't as hard as it sounds. I know how those things are created and the fact that DA was involved with something like that is somewhat disturbing. Rifts are created when a person or thing lines up with one thing, that lines up with another, that lines up to here creating a type of bridge or doorway affect. Things on the conceptual level can do that... I am not going into detail here, but I see the stuff that DA is involved with... In my terminology and experience it is astral|common psionic/mental domain|physical. You get a thing that functions as a base on the astral which creates astral-common psionic/mental-physical. The thing or things can bleed through. Once it bleeds through that common area where alot of mental activity functions, it/they can wreck havoc with a person or attack them. I am not going into denials and I am not using the proper terms, but I see from that view why it is dangerous. That is DA bringing that upon herself, though. Sorry if that sounds blunt. I also get an idea of what type of people DA is involved with. Rifts are often times created when a person attempts a specific thing. Hinting around it, this cup of water exist on the physical/spatial/temporal plane of existence. I acknowledge its existence bringing it onto the mental plane(not going into the heavy physics philosophy of dualism and the implicate order of consiousness). A person acknowledging its existence further does the same thing and so on and so forth, which thereby solidifies it. This mental echo came from and therefore has a link to its physical counterpart. Realizing this, a person can use this link to create an alignment which creates a portal/rift like affect. You can use the same dynamics when you think of using a persons name or voice or visualizing their face or whatever to link to a person. The thing exist on that mental domain of conceptualization and kind of exist as a link to the actually person. Through this link, a person can get a feel for the person (their signature) and link/sense them. I am going to sound like a jerk for saying this, but DA as a child you had no responsibility for the attacks that came at you, however, as an adult you are responsible. There are practices that specialize in activities that cause those rifts... People opening them or closing them is nasty business. I should also point out that drugs over ride alot of the natural barrier's in place that keep one OFF the bad parts of the astral. I am just throwing that out there. I astral project on a regular basis and I have taught people how to astral project. As far as projecting, while sleeping, yes people do Astral Project. Well, yes and no. It is called the Mind split. A copy of the consiousness is projected, while the actual one is safe in bed. Furthermore, alot of the conscious barrier's against mental interaction (telepathy, empathy, etc.) are lowered, so mental resistance to non copreal entities and mental suggestions are lowered as well. In other words, you are more vulnerable to telepathic and or empathic overload, telepathic and or suggestion, and astral entities during sleep. A lot of people use lucid dreams a jump off to Astral Projection. DA, I think your friend's personality warp was due to obssession. Basic psychology and nothing more. If this is the same friend as in the last thread, then this is the one that got into occultism. A lot of those procedures is psychological pomp and circumstance designed to change the psychological state of mind. In fact there is an occultic model called the Psychological model which was proposed by a man named Austin Spare and influenced alot by Carl Jung's work. If you read up on a lot of occultic literature, you will find references to techniques designed to alter memories and manipulate ones personality via self hypnosis caused by physical induced states of consciousness (depriving one's self of oxygen while looking at a symbol/sigil, orgasming to reach a state of consiousness, deep meditation, drugs and many other ego destructive things). In fact, there is an occultic figure named Chronozon. He is represented by the number 333. He is the inner demon in occultism that a person is to conquer in order to cross the great abyss. He represents your ego and therefore your personality. In fact Alister Crowley did a ritual that "enflamed him with Pan". It made him take on the psychological archetype of that deity. Notice I said psychological. The traits he identified with Pan he took on. I am sure his signature would have changed in response to that, too, don't you? I said all of that to say, your friend probably changed as a result of his an obsession with the occult and probably tried methods that warped him psychologically not psionically. The reason why you sensed "astral" energy on him was due to the dynamics of the thing that he was messing in. I will not go into on this forum, but there is a basis of understanding which accompanies such things, which you haven't grasped. Your senses are on the mark concerning one matter, but you don't understand it, or maybe you do and are choosing not to share, I don't know. The astral energy did not cause him to change, rather his psychological response caused the astral energy on him to grow, and keep in mind that "astral" energy is nothing more than concentrated "psi" energy. Psychological associations take place within the mind, and therefore, on the mental plane. This also taps into archetypes that exist on different areas on varying aspects of that plane of similar construction, which creates a type of bridge like affect. This results in a pooling of information from one source to the other. In other words, his state of mind attracted the energy not the energy caused his state of mind, which in my opinion, was his own folly. Messing around in the astral like that IS dangerous, but simple, typical astral projection is not. With all that being said, Astral Projection is perfectly safe if you don't do anything stupid. In a practical example, walking is perfectly fine just as long as you don't walk in front of a mac truck.
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TC
Respected Member
Formerly known as Yokusa
Posts: 338
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Post by TC on May 27, 2008 21:01:08 GMT -5
Ths post made a LOT of assumptions, especially towards other members, that you can't really back up. Most of your post was theory based on what you think you might know about a person. Not sure that's what we're expected in the Advanced Practices Section.
You also seem to cite a lot of different people. Mind giving us some direction as to how you found this information?
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Post by leodragon on May 27, 2008 23:59:06 GMT -5
I was pulling off DA's previous post. DA is the one that mentioned the danger's that she has encountered and "sealing off rifts" As far as citation: One can look at the book "Entangled Mind's" by Dean Radin: search.barnesandnoble.com/Entangled-Minds/Dean-Radin/e/9781416516774 www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1416516778/ref=sib_dp_pop_ex/103-0949473-9611869?ie=UTF8&p=S00H#reader-linkOne can also find information on quantum entanglement here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglementwww.quantumbrain.org/Entanglement.pdfOne can find information on consiousness and the implicate order proposed by Bohem, here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicate_and_Explicate_Order_according_to_David_Bohm#A_common_grounding_for_consciousness_and_matterThe Occultic Models that I went into such as the Psychological Model can be found here: www.chaosmatrix.org/library/chaos/texts/model.html#psychThis is info in Alister Crowley and some of his "methods" that landed him in a mental institution: www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/642011.htmlThe only assumption that I made was about what DA was doing. I spend half of my days on the astral plane and my nights (I use lucid dreaming as a jump off point to Astral Project so I am Astral Projecting during sleep, however, I am not saying that this goes for everyone). I am perfectly fine. Boogey men haven't come and gotten me. My mind hasn't been torn apart. My personality is still intact. I have all my limbs. The Astral Realm is nothing more than a realm of thought. Mental stuff. That being the case, it is highly responsive to thought. You can make or be or do anything that you can imagine. If you are being attacked. Blast it with a lazer beam. Hit it with an arrow. Make a sword. Turn into a dragon, or simply teleport away (form is molded by self perception on the astral, therefore, you can be anything that you wish and the astral is shaped by thought so you can make anything that you want and wherever you think want to go you are at). I didn't point to a member and say for sure that you are x,y, and z. I simply stated that I know how those problems are created, how they are dealt with, and what type of people DA would have to be involved with to accomplish something like that. I was very vague on that aspect. If I am wrong, I am wrong. I am, however, not knocking any bad experiences that you guy's may have had, but they are not all inclusive. If that was the case, I should have been ripped to shreds a long time ago and attacked numerous times, but I am not and haven't. The most dangerous thing that I have experienced on the astral was caused by my own stupidity. I am sorry, but this is coming across as pure paranoia to me. I astral project in a regular basis, in fact, I just got done. I am fine. what happens when you astrally project? I guess the general theory that actually makes sense is that you are putting a piece of your mind on a different plane, which, if it is an "anything goes" plane, probably has most of the creatures ever imagined by people. And not everything that people imagine is a genie or unicorn. So lets say that you "pull out" of the astral plane when you "die" there, or something bad happens. How do you know that that piece of you wasn't left behind? And if it wasnt left behind, whatever hurt you there can <i> probably </i> still hurt you psionically. In general, its not that safe. Learn as much as you can, leave APing until you get more experienced. Maybe if you were going with OBEs, which i believe are substantially different from APs to make a difference. You can not die on the Astral Plane. Yes, it does have creature's imagined by people running around. On your somewhat lower planes and your middles planes you will encounter them a lot. Bits of a person's psyche sometimes budd of with the emotion that powered it attached to it and solidify to an actual entity that manifest on the astral. A person's love or hatred for something will take root and flower into something beautiful or hideous. The realm of typical OBE's is somewhat removed from the rest of the Astral, so you would not really meet them in that area. Typically, when something bad happens, a person gets pulled back into their body the moment they feel fear. In fact getting sucked back into their body is a problem for a lot of people. A piece of you is not/can not be left behind. The only danger is something following you back, but a lot of those entities are limited to their "zone" and can not enter that part of the "astral" that bears a somewhat geographical realtionship to this plane that is a step below the one that also bears a geographical realtionship. If they can enter that zone, typically they can attack you whether or not you project or anything, and you simply drew attention to yourself. That, in itself, is rare, however, if you are simply OBE'ing (the difference between OBE'ing and Astral Projecting is that when you OBE you are still technically in sync with this plane, you are in an in between plane that doesn't have so much the properties of the Astral versus being in the Astral full blown). It can be dangerous, however, if you approach it the wrong way, but I disagree that one should regard it with complete fear and paranoia. People are painting it out to be a horrible experience when, to me at least, it is a wonderful experience. Believe or not, there are actual predator's on those planes. Normally, people don't hit those parts, though. Maybe the danger's are not so great for me because I spend/spent half my life there.
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innerfire
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Post by innerfire on May 28, 2008 14:14:33 GMT -5
One of those friends did relate a story that has physical harm involved, albeit minor.
Anyways, I have specific goals and none of them require the astral, even acknowledging some of the possible benefits you said. It's not paranoia as much as it's foolish to even take a 1% risk if you have no reason to take it in the first place. (Even for recreation I have things I'd rather do, so "reason" is out of the picture too).
I still also find something odd about this board getting wave after wave of people trying to "covert" us from our stance on the astral. Why does anyone care? All of the communities have certain focuses and aversions, if someone doesn't like the stances here they're free to find somewhere else.
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The Devil's Advocate
Author
Respected Member I will deflate your theories and claims with ye olde pointy stick of logic.
Est autem fides credere quod nondum vides; cuius fidei merces est videre quod credis.
Posts: 1,552
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Post by The Devil's Advocate on Jun 6, 2008 0:29:52 GMT -5
Leodragon? Perhaps you can explain how the ONLY time I've even come close to an OBE was when it was forced by one of those 'easily avoidable' things that came looking for ME first? I didn't dream them up. I didn't go to the astral expecting the worst. IT came to ME. Not the other way around. (Which is the one thing that everyone seems to get completely mixed up. If the astral is a happy fluffy place that's only dangerous if you think it's dangerous, and can't possibly hurt you unless you expect it to, then I wouldn't have been under attack for over a decade BEFORE ever dealing with it on any conscious level! Things out of the astral came to ME, here, not there, which indicates malice afore thought not accident or self manufacture.) What you're basically saying is that I ASKED to be repeatedly assaulted over more than a decade. That's akin to telling a victim of a mugging it's his own fault for walking down the street he did.
You are playing with fire. The more experienced people I talk to the more they say "DON'T" even the ones who don't think it is as bad as what I've experienced. It is not a place for beginners.
Since this is an advanced thread (and I got into this conversation very recently so this is new data.) I spoke with someone who had a different definition of the Astral than I have most commonly encountered. (And even she said that it was off limits to starry eyed newbies because they CAN squash themselves.) But what /she/ called the astral is what I have been viewing in my own scans as the 'big picture'. It's not really a place as far as my scans can tell. I can scan a large number of multiple layers. The 'astral' as has been defined to me by the vast majority of people I've spoken to (who can actually give a good psionically testable definition not just 'it's all in your head' which is what you're still doing, leodragon), have identified one of those layers as the astral, rather than the whole. I'm not seeing the signs of this kind of aberration of definitions in your arguments, however. And she DID acknowledge there were places that were very dangerous, and she also discouraged anyone without a great deal of experience from even trying to access the astral.
Sources for my definition of the astral: Cullen, Frozen Flame, peebrain, and Wolfdancer are the big names that most people might remember. Off line I've checked with people as well, and I've kept less good track of all the times I asked (especially when I was sorting out my shields from the cardboard montage of instinctive shields I had) what a specific shield was for, in their analysis. The shield was the one specifically against those attacks. It was UNIVERSALLY identified as against the Astral plane.
The lady mentioned 2 paragraphs back, called that specific energy type "Necromancer territory." (We spent a good portion of the 6 hours on topic hashing out terminology differences.) It is an exceptionally dangerous area, and was immediately identified as the 'astral' to everyone I either showed it specifically to, or asked to define what my shield was specifically against. (Even when in some cases the response was: why do you have a shield against the astral?) Which indicates that it's a relatively consistent reference point across the board, and I have manifestly been attacked out of it. I say again: It came to me before I ever even knew there was something to go to.
I'm not coming at this from left field, Leodragon, and you're going to have to do more than say "well it's safe for me and I do it all the time!" Just because you've managed to swim with jelly fish and not get stung, doesn't mean it's the smart thing to do. Not everyone dies in a game of Russian Roulette, but do you really want to take that chance? Especially when talking to someone who's caught the bullet, even though they weren't playing?
~The Devil's Advocate
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