How to deal with People (Crazies or otherwise)

[Lady Hawke]

This part of the thread has been moved to D&D. The relevant posts on the new topic have been posted below. The topic under debate is disbelief vs. discrediting, and what are and are not appropriate responses to individuals in the psionic community, as well as how one builds credibility in the psionic community.

Posts are quoted with the name of the individual posting above the quote in bold.

~Lady Hawke

Neveza:

I don't understand that quote...

I'm skeptical of many things and hard for someone to remove that skepticism when I'm firm to my ideas. I've already been classified as the little DanielH. I'm extremely biased on everything and if some crazyfuck comes out of nowhere and just start talking to me about duplicating objects or going back in time changing the present(true examples), I'm not going to even deal with understanding, at the most, I'll probably verbally abuse them. Sure, that's understandable, you wouldn't even give someone that would speak of that a chance. However, I've discredit experienced people just because I don't like them and I will, at the most, try to make them look less then they are.

At the most, I go by respect. I don't go by what they say. If I find a suppose practictioner to be a total prick, I will discredit them. If I like them, I'll take what they claim a bit better. If I see otherwise, however, through practice or any sort of contradiction, I will start to doubt and throw it in their face which will inevitably lose total or half respect. Although, people that know me would probably disagree with what I said since I've hated people just because they disagreed with me. Hahah!

The Devil's Advocate

The kindness and courtesy of an individual is not usually a reliable gauge of lunacy. There are a lot of very nice, polite lunatics out there. There are alot of experts that are rather comparable to the north end of a south bound mule. Hating people because you disagree with them is not something to brag about. Bandying about such a powerful emotion just because someone annoys you is more than a little petty. Also you may need to re-assess your definition of 'discredit'. There is a difference between "disbelieve" and "discredit." The former just requires you deciding you don't care what they say you're not going to believe it even if they're right. The later requires you actually proving they don't know what they're talking about on a larger scale than a single argument.

For the quote: You've got a guy with phenomenal nearly cosmic powers (green lantern) who battles unlikely villians and insanity making situations pretty much daily, has an alien on speed dial, and works with notables such as Wonder Woman and Superman and (if I remember correctly) Captain America... finding it unusual that a guy that runs impossibly fast (and then some) should have a conversation with a Gorilla.

~The Devil's Advocate

Neveza

I am a hard person to become trusting with someone, can't be come lune on the street, they have to show that they can be abled to be trusted. Nice and polite doesn't cut it, at the most, it can bother me. I'm not actually bragging, just telling the truth. I don't have to exactly discredit someone by proving someone wrong, just have to convince everybody else that someone is wrong, however I do little of that, I'm just truthful on what I see. I'm not exactly far off from my opinions though and usually get ops to members agreeing with me about specific people. Although, I've had my moments where I've been wrong (or having nobody with me), sometimes leading to someone leaving.

I still don't understand the quote.

The Devil's Advocate

If you've successfully discredited anyone, it hasn't been here. And you're not living up to what you claim to do on this site. I have not seen you contribute in a useful manner to any thread in a very long time. I have had my hands full in every thread you've entered dealing with YOUR unsubstantiated claims which does you very little credit, quite frankly. You are very opinionated about what you see, but you've never put enough backing into it (or even revealed enough observation) for me to call it more than your unsubstantiated opinion. You have to do more than that to call something the truth, especially when it directly conflicts with the observations of others. Truth and Perception are very different things... part of why I AM a skeptic, and why I have this particular role. Your post above very much made it sound like you would maliciously and vindictively attempt (not succeed though you implied success in a few places) to discredit individuals whom you did not like and who disagreed with you regardless of whether their arguments were valid, placing your opinion of the person above observation, logic, and even the TRUTH you claim to support.

On the quote: If you don't understand the irony now you probably never will. Think outside the box a little.

~The Devil's Advocate

Wolfdancer

*nods* They both have the same alien on speed dial. It's from a cartoon.

Anyway, back to the original topic. I personally tend to be a little more open to at least listening to people ideas or beliefs (no matter how 'out there' they are). It doesn't mean I will believe them, but I will give them the chance to explain and make a case for it rather than discounting it because I haven't seen that side of "reality."

Neveza: Yes, I can see where some people may have made those observations...I pray that I will never have someone accuse me of being so petty as to let a persons attitude prevent me from looking at their statements and responding objectively. Friends may here me rant to get the frustration out of my system so I can respond...but that's another issue all its own.

Neveza

DA, this place has skilled practictioners and logical thinkers. Intelligent beings as well. I can't go off and ruin a reputation(like I would, there is no reason for that) since that would inevitably come back to bite me in the ass. As I've said before in many other posts dealing with certain situation, this isn't my territory, meaning I have little to no member support for my views since very little that are in here hangs around communities that I go to. (Psipog before it archived, regardless that I was a major troll at the time, and upconline.net/ .) I hardly speak in details or anything to support myself. I merely give advice to beginners. Let them use it, if it doesn't work, oh well. I'm not exactly here to impress any old or experienced members. I do most of my work on the IRC really. Any newbie tha waltz in a chatroom asking for help, I'll give my hand if I can. Newbies like me, unless they're rude to me at first encounter, I tend to help them and they tend to succeed.

As well, I would try more often helping beginners in the forums, but you guys always beat me to a post. I don't see the point in posting when you pretty much said everything that needs to be said. And when I do post, it's always disagreed with and you and I always clash. There is a reason I hardly post around here.

Wolfdancer

I hate to have to point this out, but you are significantly off topic at this point. Can we please relocate this conversation to Debate and Discussion.

I'm afraid the point of analyzing people's statements is to help develop more solid and sound techniques and more clear methods of explanation. This is one of our goals. Ambiguity leads to frustration and misunderstanding.

That you would try to discredit someone with experience doesn't concern me near as much as your attitude toward those just starting out in psionics.

Personally, I think that it is very important to hear someone out no matter how far fetched their ideas are. I refuse to immediately blow someone off because I don't think their statement makes sense. Sometimes it doesn't make sense the way it was originally stated. Sometimes I've discovered that there is a vocabulary or perspective difference that caused the confusion and we actually agree on some rather bizarre statements once understanding of those statements has been reached.

~Wolfdancer

[The Devil's Advocate]

If you are not going to give anything to support your claims and opinions, you should not be giving advice. The majority of the objections I have against your posts, Neveza, are the same things I have against half the sites that are the topic of discussion in the original thread: You never back yourself up in any kind of fashion neither do most of them. If you would back yourself up and present a logical argument rather than a 'this is how it is because I say so,' your ideas would be much better received.

I do not ask of you, or any of these sites or theorists anything I do not ask of myself: Some reason for your opinion beyond "I say so." That's what it all boils down to for me. If you can only thrive in environments where you can get away with not backing yourself up, you may want to closely re-examine your posts and your stated purpose. It takes logic to do everything you claim to delight in doing. Please demonstrate that you have the capacity to do so.

Disagreement is not always a sign of ill feeling. Disagreement with others based on observations, experiments, and logic are essential to figuring out the nuts and bolts of any kind of system. How much have we, as psions, done either to prove to ourselves that we are, indeed, not crazy as the world would name us? How much of our growth has come out of someone wanting to prove to a brother/sister/father/mother/cousin/friend that this psi thing is real?

That is why the Catholic Church invented the position of the "Devil's Advocate" to oppose canonizations. It was a check and balance system.

~The Devil's Advocate

[neveza]

I do not claim anything. I just give out advice. Nothing more. I do not say "Oh, doing this will give you great skills" or anything of the sort. I just speak on how I see it. Only giving a different view, not stating a fact or anything of that. It's called advice for a reason. Should be taken lightly and only used as a tool to figure out what the hell one should do. Not a path.

There is much reasons why I don't go into detailed with techniques, really out of lazyness, but I think people should give personality to their techniques and not use some other's persons. That's why I tell people not to take articles so strictly since it hinders them on the long run when they keep pushing themselves into such bounderies.

I see no reason to back myself to anybody in the forums. I'm not going about telling people 'truths' or 'scientific theories", so I don't need to actually back myself. Really, it's not my problem if your belief is troubled by my own views, I mean, I understand if it's something more factual or retarded, but I've been called out for my own techniques which I greatly hate.

[Stony1205]

As an Admin, I am trying to view this from both sides. I've reviewed everyone's posts, and I think I have a general idea where everyone is coming from here.

Though neveza can act a bit like DanielH, I think both of those members at one time or another have been crucial parts of this community. Neveza has on many occasions provided good advice and viewed things from angles many of us have not. Yes, Neveza, I think you've been rude on occasions, and most of the time you either correct it or the mods catch it. In the "big picture" its not that big of a deal, really. I think my lack of content updates are more hurtful than the occasional attitude.

DA, Wolf, don't think I'm trying to pull the carpet out from under your feet. I understand where you are coming from as well. Rude behavior and cocky attitudes do not make for the best learning environments, and you know that well. It is important to make sure that members explain themselves and verify what they're doing to the best of their ability. You're both doing exactly what I would expect from you.

However, I agree whole heartedly with neveza's post and I can actually back him up with a clause in the PAP. First the quote from neveza:

I see no reason to back myself to anybody in the forums. I'm not going about telling people 'truths' or 'scientific theories", so I don't need to actually back myself. Really, it's not my problem if your belief is troubled by my own views, I mean, I understand if it's something more factual or retarded, but I've been called out for my own techniques which I greatly hate.

And from the PAP

4:13 - Proof of Ability No member or staff member, may forcefully ask another member or staff member to prove their abilities. Nobody is your personal guinea pig. Do not confuse this with being asked to prove a theory or argument. Offences will result in an edit up through a probation.

If the man has a technique that works for him and he wants to post it, let him post the damned thing. Its not like he wants his idea posted in JAMA. Sure, if his idea is terribly outlandish or startling, it might need some further explanation, but if its just a different way of getting a task accomplished, I dont see what the problem is as long as it says within the general scope of the website. If you dont agree with that technique, you are free to do that and you can express that thought, but just because you dont agree with it, does not mean another member will not find it useful.

There is another school of thought on how psionics works that is not present here at PsiOnline, but I have seen it at UPC by various members. Just because it isn't the "common practice" at PsiOnline does not mean that this practice is invalid or possibly even more efficient.

The bottom line is this. We're here to give good information and tips to anyone who wants them. They can use all or none of them for all I care. If one person can get something out of ANY of the tips or techniques posted here, I think its worth everything.

So in conclusion, neveza, you can dislike whomever you choose, just dont be an asshole about it on my forums or chat room. Mods, keep up the good work. I understand you're just trying to keep content at a high level.

~ Stony

[wolfdancer]

I understand that we all have a right to post our techniques. I also understand that no one here is a test dummy to be experimented upon. However, attention to how things are phrased and a moderate level of support is helpful. An abrasive attitude can be as damaging to a new psion as bad technique, especially when it causes communication to break down. Now some people just won't listen and I'm not expecting everyone to have high ranks in diplomacy, but at least try a little. Please?

Also, Thank you, LH for bringing this over here since I didn't have the time to. We almost ruined a perfectly good thread with a tangent discussion. It is something worth debating and deserves to be discussed just not in the context it was originally in.

4:13 - Proof of Ability No member or staff member, may forcefully ask another member or staff member to prove their abilities. Nobody is your personal guinea pig. Do not confuse this with being asked to prove a theory or argument. Offences will result in an edit up through a probation.

As far as I was able to tell, no one was being asked to prove a skill. I've seen request for evidence or supporting statements to support comments made in discussion. However, currently none of that has even been directly relevant to psionics techniques, but more to the point of this is a method of communication that will keep things on an even keel and keep explanations clear.

I don't see a problem with that.

I know we have debated theories and schools of thought repeatedly. I know we have many disagreements, but that is often inherent in science. However, the ability to support our own ideas and theories is a skill that we should all be working on and striving for. If something is stated as a fact, I think we have a right expect some support (however weak) to be available. Otherwise, it is unlikely that it will be accepted as a whole in the community....or at least so my observations indicate (if you would like names of those most unlikely to accept these types of statements ask me)

Well, I'm starting to ramble a bit, but I think you get the gist of what I'm trying to say. Feel free to request clarification on any of it.


~Wolf