Leek
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Post by Leek on Jan 17, 2007 12:23:32 GMT -5
The practice of psionics is to vague and unknown for us yet to make laws of it. Again, its all in your head.
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The Devil's Advocate
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Respected Member I will deflate your theories and claims with ye olde pointy stick of logic.
Est autem fides credere quod nondum vides; cuius fidei merces est videre quod credis.
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Post by The Devil's Advocate on Jan 17, 2007 16:31:01 GMT -5
Is it now? We can definitely start forming some hypothesese. It is not exclusivly 'all in your head' when different people are independantly making the same observations, and, once you sort through subjective analysis, observing the same effects in roughly the same manner. We can consistently achieve effects. We can speak to one another about it and understand what we are talking about, without resorting to pure philosophy and poetics. We can make observations had have them independantly substantiated. I think we have pleanty of materiel to at least START making 'rules' and seeing how well they hold up under the burden of reality and repeated trials.
~The Devil's Advocate
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Leek
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Post by Leek on Jan 17, 2007 19:18:04 GMT -5
I'm just saying that by making laws of psionics, we only limit and blind ourselves, as the law of gravity. We can defy it.So by making laws, in which we only later break, we're just making trouble.
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Post by confuded92 on Jan 17, 2007 22:46:43 GMT -5
Why makes you think we have enough of material to make hypothesis? Do you have the material? Is the material machines that could messure or psi data? Please specify. P.S. Broke my promess not to post here *scarrryy* Please dont drop any atomic bombs on me, I am just trying to clarify not object .
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Leek
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Post by Leek on Jan 17, 2007 23:28:47 GMT -5
How did you know I was a terrorist?
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neveza
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Post by neveza on Jan 18, 2007 4:46:46 GMT -5
I'm just saying that by making laws of psionics, we only limit and blind ourselves, as the law of gravity. We can defy it.So by making laws, in which we only later break, we're just making trouble. How are we defying it? We're not floating off into space for no reason. We're not changing gravity and causing catastrophic damage. Then again, many obease people of earth will probably break the law of gravity and everything else they stand on, possibly causing a rip in time and space. Regardless, science isn't perfect, but it's better than philosphical perception. I don't see you trying to disprove anything or prove anything, so don't discreadit science so fast. We call laws from constant results of success, I don't see a flaw within it.
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The Devil's Advocate
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Respected Member I will deflate your theories and claims with ye olde pointy stick of logic.
Est autem fides credere quod nondum vides; cuius fidei merces est videre quod credis.
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Post by The Devil's Advocate on Jan 18, 2007 17:21:04 GMT -5
Thank you Neveza.
Confuded: A hypothesis is 'a working theory' that is us going 'this looks like what is happening, let's assume it does work that way and see if we can make it NOT work that way." The 'materiel' is in these forums and in discussions with individual psions. Not very many yet, but there are conclusions we have ALL come to without talking to each other before hand, which makes those conclusions more likely to be accurate. Example: A common theme with constructs is that you cannot program them with anything you, yourself, cannot already acomplish. We drew this conclusion because people on this site and psipog kept TRYING! And kept failing. Passive ranges: I have spoken with Jacci and Cullen and both have stated there is a limit to the distance at which they "hear" local emotion when not actively "listening". Their statements match what I, myself have experienced. They also corroborate with what Wolfdancer has discussed with me about her Telepathy. These observations lead me to conclude that psionics is limited by distance at a passive level, at least when it comes to things that can be EXPERIENCED in the passive level. (TK is much harder to do when you're not wanting to move something.) So yes, this population is enough to form a hypothesis from. Not enough to fully TEST one, but it's enough to start from.
Leek: Given that Psi DOES follow rules, whether you want it to or not, your statment is at best quite pointless. At worst? Well read it again and realize you're saying "PHysics doesn't apply because we don't want it to!" Think about it.
When people are independantly ariving at the same conclusions and notice the same LIMITATIONs it is not likely they are all, individually, imposing the same limits on themselves. Psionics is part of reality, so unless you want to claim we're all just imagining this, you're going to have to accept that psionics MUST follow the rules of reality. Reality manifestly DOES operate on rules. We can observe them, and observe their consistency. We can see how they relate to one another. We can and ARE doing the same things with Psi!
~The Devil's Advocate
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Leek
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Post by Leek on Jan 18, 2007 19:17:43 GMT -5
Can you prove that psi follows rules? And, with TK/PK we ARE screwing over physics because we want to. Objects aren't not supposed to float in the air just because you want them too....
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The Devil's Advocate
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Respected Member I will deflate your theories and claims with ye olde pointy stick of logic.
Est autem fides credere quod nondum vides; cuius fidei merces est videre quod credis.
Posts: 1,552
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Post by The Devil's Advocate on Jan 18, 2007 20:17:26 GMT -5
No we're not screwing over physics. We are applying a force. How does that screw with physics? Just because the mechanism for applying that force is not readily apparent doesn't mean that force is not applied. How much do you actually KNOW about physics? Upper end astrophysics and most of quantum physics make TK look like an every day occurance. How much of these things have you studied? Have you actually gotten into the implications of what Einstinian relativity might mean outside of the science fiction movies and novels? Have you bothered to actually look up ANYTHING at all? Hav eyou even taken basic highschool Physics yet? What's you're background? What are you basing your claims of DEFYING the laws of physics?
You obviously didn't read my full reply to confuded. Psi appears to follow rules. Independant lines of evidence lead to the same conclusion in multiple parties. Is it completely conclusive? No. But it IS enough to start making ground level hypothesis. Frankly the UNIVERSE follows rules. Why should we be so ARROGANT as to think Psi doesn't? Just because we don't know them and aren't taught them in school? We don't understand all the details of how the world works yet, but the pattern that has been demonstraited time and time again is that there IS a pattern to it all. There ARE rules the universe appears to follow. And there is absolutely NO indication that Psi is an exception to that, just because you don't understand how it can be doesn't mean science is that limited.
~The Devil's Advocate
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Leek
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Post by Leek on Jan 18, 2007 22:56:53 GMT -5
There are no limitations in my opinion, because the world hasn't actually done enough research to actually say that there are laws/rules. Just because you say that you've talked to 'authority' and talked to some people about psionics,maybe done a few expirements doesn't mean you can just say that those laws are precise. You do know that everyone's mind is different,right? But with physics, 1 newtons is a newton.It's all "mathematical"
doesn't mean you can make crazy laws like 'Psi degenerates at the speed of 1 newton/s'? You do see that we're doing what people did long ago. Make rules, only to limit ourselves. Why do we have to stop ourselves and limit our minds and not go to our full potential?
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neveza
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Post by neveza on Jan 19, 2007 5:00:32 GMT -5
So if I lost all knowledge and became a retard I can be a character from DBZ!!! OMG!!!! That's so cool!
Seriously, there is a limit and you can't fight it. Sure, we haven't hit it, but we sure as hell understand the practical and probable.
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The Devil's Advocate
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Respected Member I will deflate your theories and claims with ye olde pointy stick of logic.
Est autem fides credere quod nondum vides; cuius fidei merces est videre quod credis.
Posts: 1,552
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Post by The Devil's Advocate on Jan 19, 2007 8:17:06 GMT -5
I"m not making "crazy laws" But, I CAN say 'Passive ranges do 'fade out' over distance, becuase they manifestly DO. You cannot say they do not, because I can point to people and go "Talk to them about it." Is it enough to determine the RATE at which psionics 'breaks down' or 'degenerates' but it is enough to say it probably DOES and start looking into it more.
Do you honestly think that any given theory started out more solidly than this? Look at your history. Geology: The Law of Faunal succession (that is stratographic layers that contain similar fossils are likely of similar ages, and the change in the fossils follows the same pattern and changes over time.) was discovered by a canal digger in england. He noticed that digging a canal in one part of England yielded the same patern of rock layers and fossils in another part of England. The more canals he dug, the more the pattern seemed to suport itself so he went out and started LOOKING. And gee! It works that way!
Newton invented calculus so he could accurately DESCRIBE the relationship between forces of motion that he was observing. Mathematics is NOT physics. Mathematics helps DESCRIBE physics and quantify how all the related forces work together. It bases itself in OBSERVATION, either through experiementation or by going out and using a stopwatch on a train and looking at the damage when it hits something to figure out roughly the force of momentum it carried.
Do we know what all the rules are? No. But if you're going to say there are no rules and no limits, please go levitate yourself across the grand canyon, you'd save us alot of trouble arguing with you. Just because you don't like it and don't have it in a text book doesn't mean it's not real. That's why we have 'research'. Novel concept, I know. And according to you, something to be avoided at all cost. AFter all if we learn more about psionics we will be limiting ourselves! (Oh the horror and shame of it.... please not dripping sarcasm.)
~The Devil's Advocate
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R.
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Post by R. on Jan 19, 2007 8:32:19 GMT -5
We shouldn't get ahead of ourselves, if you are going to make any rules you must throughly test any of them. While many separate people do come to same conclusions there are always exceptions. If we claim anything without any decent proof we wont be any different from cult sites, for example people used to believe earth is flat and it seemed right at the time simply because they didn't have enough information.
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The Devil's Advocate
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Respected Member I will deflate your theories and claims with ye olde pointy stick of logic.
Est autem fides credere quod nondum vides; cuius fidei merces est videre quod credis.
Posts: 1,552
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Post by The Devil's Advocate on Jan 19, 2007 9:01:08 GMT -5
I'm making observations. I've said REPEATEDly that this needs to be tested. I've said again and again, I'm not making anything completely hard and fast. You are obviously not actually reading anything that's being said. There is a difference between carving a rule in stone and stating "This is the trend I have observed, therefore it is logical to conclude this and see what we can do with it." Which is ALL I have done. It is utterly preposterous to use that as an excuse to say there ARE NO RULES. Which is what Leek is doing.
The rules exist. Just because we don't know about them doesn't mean they don't exist. We do not MAKE the laws of physics. We DISCOVER the relationships and DESCRIBE what is going to be happening whether we are there to care or not. The Universe doesn't need our permission to work the way it works and not a thing we can do is going to change how the universe DOES work. If you don't like it, go live in a cave and ignore the world around you, and certainly NEVER take any physics courses. You'd probably implode. They ask you to actually try and *gasp* UNDERSTAND.
~The Devil's Advocate
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Leek
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Post by Leek on Jan 19, 2007 11:41:36 GMT -5
AFter all if we learn more about psionics we will be limiting ourselves! In my break, I've seen that if we limit ourselves.There are limits, but theres this white guy saying I heard of when I passed a subway one time, 'turn the other cheek' other something. When you limit yourself life sucks. Thats why.I'm trying to say that forgot the rules for now. Because it'll be in another lifetime that someone actually gets the cold hard facts/laws of psionics.
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