Efficient Flaring of Shields

[The Devil's Advocate]

First thing I'd like to point out one basic principle we cannot currently ignore: Law of Conservation of Energy.

"Because flaring takes energy it must improve shields because shield require energy." Bad Hypothesis. It misapplies what we already know without answering why we are ignoring it. (ie the Law of Conservation of Energy)

"Something about how a Flare works will provide a boost, if only temporary to how a shield works." Better Hypothesis, still not great Hypothesis.

Shooting in the dark rarely yields results. "What happens if I drop a penny off the eifle tower?" Usually yields a smart alec remark from someone "It hits the ground stupid!"

There is a great deal of circumstantial evidence that allows us to analytically deduce that a shield will probably not benefit from being flared.

1) Flares take a great deal of energy to accomplish.

2) Flares are generally of short duration even for skilled practitioners of Psionics.

3) Shields can take a great deal of energy, especially under adverse conditions such as an attack.

4) Shields are a sustainable construct, as evidenced by the number of psions that have long duration to effectively permanent shields.

5) Accounts of flaring consistently report that flares leave the psion drained after the attempt, to the point of some impairment of psionic capability (the extent of this impairment has varied by account from just general drop in efficiency, to not being able to do anything else at all psionic for a short period.) For evidence look up the articles here and on psipog about flaring.

6) Flaring is not something that is routinely done instantaneously. It requires preparation. (see most articles regarding flaring on this and other reliable sites.)

7) Flares loose energy by converting whatever they are doing into visible light spectrum. (How flares release energy in the visible spectrum is not yet up for debate.)

Analysis
Both flares and shields take energy to accomplish ( points 1 and 3). Under adverse circumstances (when you would need the suggested boost the most), a shield is at it’s peak energy requirement (Point 3). Many attacks are of long duration. (I recently underwent roughly a week and a half worth of ‘siege’. If an attack is instantaneous then a flare would be of limited utility, it takes time to flare and by then the attack would be over (point 6). Over a long duration attack a flare would not last long enough to be of use unless it could do enough good unless it could end the attack immediately (Point 2). If it could not end the attack immediately, it would inhibit the ability of the psion to ward off future attacks (point 5), and erode the energy required by a shield under attack (point 3) to maintain itself for whatever necessary duration and beyond when the attack has ended without expenditure of resources that may or may not be available to the psion after flaring (points 1, 3, 4, 5).

~The Devil's Advocate, Going easy on the analysis since she hasn't done this to you folk before.

[TC]

I do agree mostly on this. Flaring will probably do nothing positive for your shield. It will be a neutral skill, if not negative to your shields, having looked over the analysis. The reason I say that flaring could possibly yeild negative results is that it does seem to take a lot of energy to flare and flaring isn't known to last long. This decreases your current reserve of energy and would result in unequal flow of energy, yes?

I know in the other thread I was kinda siding toward the fact that it may /or/ may not yeild positive results and that we can't completely confirm because of our combined experience and information about flaring. But looking over these points kinda made me rethink the ideas of flaring. Yes, flaring most likely yeilds neutral or negative results. It may give our shields positive results, but if they do, we evidently haven't discovered it yet.

[Lancefighter]

well, that might be becouse nobody has TRIED tc...
the DA- my shields are allways passive, i dont do active shielding well. Therefore, the energy requierments are exactly the same, no matter if i am underattack or not. (unless i start repairing them myself or something.)
give me a year ish to work out flaring, and i will give you people results on if my flares acually acomplish something (it would be with someone on irc, if that is still going... perhaps aim at the worst... heh skype ) (and it would be done as a total experiment, - with the scanner not knowing when it happens.... all that good stuff. )
k, till next time...
-Lancefighter

[The Devil's Advocate]

Lance, your statement does not follow the flow of conversation what are you refering to (after consultation with 2 other individuals who agree that you're not being clear.) Please clarify your first sentence.

Passive shields: So? My shields are always there and I am not usually consciously maintaining them. They STILL take a beating when under attack. Unless they have sufficient stored energy they COLLAPES if they do not some how compensate for the added load of an attack. If you need substantiation on THAT I have enough personal experience to give you a good starting point and I'm sure Wolf and a few others could back up that particular observation. Whether you consciously boost the energy they require or not, more energy (even if it is a pre-established reserve) is tapped. Shields are not immune to the law of conservation of energy. Even an efficient shield (and I have several layers worth)

You did not address a SINGLE point in the analysis. Instead you have insisted you’re right because ‘no one’s ever tried it so you can’t possibly be right!!!!!!!!!!!’ People have documented flaring. Look at the volume of articles on the subject. They all agree on the points included above. What is your rebuttal to those consistent observations: Flaring manifestly takes ENERGY and a great deal. Flaring manifestly is short duration, usually attributed to the amount of energy.

You’re blatantly ignoring one of the major scientific resources/tools out there: RESEARCH. There is a body of research on flaring done for you. Look at what other people who have worked on flaring and documented their discoveries, observations, and other findings.

Please note, this is your one warning. We are in the Debate and Discussion Forum. I don’t have to be sweet and happy here.

~The Devil’s Advocate

[Lancefighter]

Fine fine fine... no sweet and happy... but I like sweet and happy then again... I don’t have to come back here, you cant FORCE me to post here... ill just give up on lost causes that go into here, if I must
'Whether you consciously boost the energy they require or not, more energy (even if it is a pre-established reserve) is tapped.'
Not true. its like medieval castles- once you had the wall up, it doesn’t need any more stone... you just have to hope it is thick enough not to fall apart when the rocks start flying.
And personally, I think I addressed every single point, with my short little post... but that’s just me.
In my first sentence, I was referring to this
'It may give our shields positive results, but if they do, we evidently haven't discovered it yet. ' that tc said in his post.
Ah yes... I’ve read perhaps... 3? Articles on flaring... it might be because I usually don’t do flaring, I’ve tried, and it didn’t go that well, so I pretty much gave up on it for a while.
and when working in areas like this, I don’t see that much research going around, and I use my own. that and because I don’t trust most of the internet, and I really don’t have access to libraries, where I could find books on this. And also- I have not seen a SINGLE document that tells anything about how flaring affects the energy around it. (And I can't do my own research on it... as I CAN'T)
I think I will start looking at the points, by themselves now...

1) very good...
2) Ok... more stating of the obvious, I commend you.
3)'can take'? Shields can take a lot in damage, or require a lot in holding them up... remember, a stone wall only needs to be put up once, and then maintained.
4) More stating what many of us already know...
5) So... you are saying, if something like this works, it is not viable because it will temporarily disable a Psion that attempts this?
6) If I remember correctly, triggering can be used... it may take time, but then again- your attacker wont be able to attack you instantly either- you will have SOME warning, more often then now.... afaik
7) So now we have agreed that flares actually do make visible light, and not some other phenomenon? When did this debate go on? I would have loved to be in it...

Give me a sec to spell-check...
-Lance

[innerfire]

1) Stone walls are damaged by every attack, depending on what you use though the damage could be negligable, once you start hitting it with a big enough rock or shoot cannonballs at it you'll find that the defensive capacity of a wall is finite
2) Most attacks are completely without warning, I don't notice until the point where something either has or has tried to rip a hole through my shield. If that's different for your experience that's great (and probably a very useful ability to have), just pointing out that its not that way for everyone.
3) Afaik, making a shield retain *really* its structure just under normal conditions takes a little bit of clever programming, the one I saw in one of the PSC logs, the tower shield requires a tremendous amount of visualization, also I'd suspect that the way its "built" also has some limits based on the vivid visualization inputted into the construct (here it is if you want to read www.psc-online.org/site/logs/Dan-2003-07-23-Stone_Tower_Shielding.html )

[Lancefighter]

1) ok.
2) depending if you keep a sensor web like constuct thingie... or a shield that's whole point if to tell you if its attacked or somesuch...
3) a tower shield doesnot SEEM too hard... i tried to put some up, but never really had the chance to test them. (i dont normally go around asking for fights...) though it does work well in crowded areas.

[innerfire]

Alright on it not being too hard, what I was going for is that the visualization is more indepth than a good deal of 'typical' shields yes? The visualization I would think would lock in some effects, like stone walls aren't going to be a particularly useful base for say a reflection shield. I would think it would take a certain kind of visualized base to properly facilitate the flaring effect (if I remember from the flaring articles, the construct needs a particular layout to function), and that base might not be able to easily incorparate features such as things that would allow it to remain up for long periods of time without maitenence.

I apoligize if my point got lost somewhere in this thing about tower shields and stuff, what I was getting to is that a flaring shield likely could not be just put up and left, it would require periodic recharging and stuff.

[Lancefighter]

perhaps. unless you have a energy source that you have recharge from random bits of energy lieing around where you are... .... ... ... /me Lance thinks to much.
also, with triggering it might work... being able to put them up left and right i mean. (well... this still has it limetations. )
/me Lance needs to also get to bed.
-Lance

[The Devil's Advocate]

The point, Lancefighter, is you didn't address the ARGUEMENT at all.

1) On the 'stone wall' thing? A few worlds: Trebuchet, Ballista, Catapult, Seige Tower, Battering Ram. Just to stick to the pre-gunpowder weapons. The point being: After an attack you usually had to rebuild the wall or rebuild the castle. (One I forgot: Flaming Arrows, bad for sentries, bad for any wooden supports.) There are things that are to shields as these siege weapons are to walls. They tear them down.

2) As someone who has been under attack repeatedly there are several sub points that need to be made since they obviously have been not.
a) Attacks are USUALLY instantaneous. Not sometimes, usually. Unless you are precoordinating an experiment, attacks are usually instantaneous.
b) Attacks are usually NOT telegraphed unless you’re dealing with someone who doesn’t have the first clue about what they’re doing. Consider it the psionic equivalent of trying to sneak up on your kid brother while shouting “I’M GOING TO TICKLE YOU!!!!” It’s not very effective, and anyone who actually WANTS to attack you is going to do everything in their power to make certain you don’t see them coming. PM for some tactics that have been used against me.

3) You don’t trust the body of articles out there because people make things up. Fine go to 6 completely different sites and find their flaring articles, see what’s similar. If you can find a psionics site in another language you speak translate the article from that.

4) Last I checked flaring was DEFINED as a construct releasing light in the visible spectrum. This isn’t a debate topic. You can debate HOW it does it to your little heart’s content, but unless you want to have to redefine what is ‘matter’ you might want to avoid arguing with established definitions. There aren’t enough of them to go around in the psionic community at this juncture.

5) Sensor web construct thingy: um… please see point 2.b. And if your sensor web doesn’t have any kind of defenses, by the time it goes off they’ll already be on your main shields. You can’t put it out at a sufficient radius to give advance warning without missing a significant number of people who might, potentially attack you.

6) No you don’t have to respond here. Though I can still open threads for that purpose and poke 3 page holes in your theories whether you choose to defend them or not. It makes the point I need to make whether or not you decide to rebut or learn or add anything that would actually clarify or enlighten a situation or discussion. The point of moving it here is to get the discussion OFF whatever thread it was side railing.

7) Flaring weaking a psion in combat: If it doesn’t disable a psion at the time it WILL weaken them. I doubt you’ve ever been under serious attack if you don’t think being attacked is draining. Attacks can last for WEEKS (been there), especially if there is more than one attacker on a single target. The target has to be careful what methods they use for defense because they don’t KNOW how long the attack is going to be. Something like flaring requires a lot of energy. (I know you said it was obvious but you seem to have missed this point repeatedly so I’m going to keep repeating it until you catch on.) That is energy you may not be able to regenerate or replace quickly. I repeat: If it does not end the attack completely and immediately it detracts from the psion’s abilities to defend against any subsequent attacks. I have yet to see evidence that it will actually stand ANY chance of ending an attack, which makes it much to risky, especially if you’re not being attacked by beginners. Even assuming you could, somehow, trigger a flare instantaneously and by some miracle or precognition knew the attack was coming.

8) If I have only stated what you claim you already know? Then why are you utterly ignoring what you know? You’ve blatantly ignored the analysis for no apparent reason what so ever. You in one post say that I’m stating the obvious then attempt to REFUTE the obvious! Make up your mind.

You haven’t discussed how flares might cause sympathetic resonances the way waves modify one another, positively or negatively. You haven’t suggested any logical reasoning behind this other than you think it’s a cool idea. You haven’t suggested a way to test it in a controlled manner. You haven’t even stated what PRECISELY you think will happen, what observations lead you to believe this, how you analyzed them, since, if you’re utterly disregarding my analysis you must have SOMETHING that you’re going off of. Would you care to enlighten us, in detail? Since you’re obviously so much wiser in the ways of the laws of the universe? (Please note dripping sarcasm.)

~The Devil’s Advocate

[neveza]

My idea is that it doesn't take much psi energy to flare, but it takes energy (ATP energy that is) and focus of one when one tries to flare. So, flaring a shield would be a cool effect, but I doubt it'll help the Shielder. Yes, I don't believe psi comes from us. (That's to say if we effect the probablity of the energy movements and it's on the electromagnetic spectrum and some photon or particle)

But, I can't really disagree with you, DA, as It makes much sense.

[The Devil's Advocate]

Now that is a very interesting point Neveza.

I don't agree at all that psionics is, itself, electromagnetic. There are too many things that DO interfere with electromagnetic radiation that do not appear to interfere with psi. However, which part of the energy equation is the actual drain is quite an interesting question. I would say flaring itself probably does take quite a bit of Psi (yes this is relative since we don't have a unit of Psi the way we have a unit for Force... or work... or mass.) For relative reference: More than your average construct or it wouldn't be so difficult to flare.

If it is not psi intensive, why would it be so much more biologically energy intensive? The questions we would have to answer would run along the lines of: How does the conversion process between psi and light function? Flaring is defined as the emission of visible light by a psiball. We would have to find some way to test how this was achieved, before we could draw definitive conclusions as to how this works. It is something that would be quite interesting to look into, though.

~The Devil's Advocate

[Lancefighter]

i fail to see how i totally 'forgot' to adress the argument, so i am going to just give up. some things are a lost cause, and i feel this is one of them.
/me Lance hereby forgets about this topic.

[The Devil's Advocate]

Have fun, take your marbles and go home, we have pleanty.

Anyone else who wants to continue the discussion, Neveza has raised a few very good questions, I'm all for keeping the discussion going if there's anyone interested.

~The Devil's Advocate

[wolfdancer]

Lance, DA: Both of you need to straighten up a bit. This is Debate and Discussion not let's have an attitude contest.


It is going to take me a little while to see if I can see a way to test the point Neveza has raised. The discussion is going well, let's keep it up and see where we go to.