innerfire
Author
Respected Member
--Unknown--
Posts: 399
|
Post by innerfire on Jun 8, 2007 15:11:42 GMT -5
Inner, that is a phenomenally well stated theory. I agree with a lot of what you said. One key point of contestation is that you reference it as only coming from mammals. I believe that plants also produce faint amounts of psi. I have not noticed it within inanimate objects, however. If a biological function is the source, then I believe that some cellular system is probably responsible. More to come later, and sorry for the late response. ~Cullen Hmm if plants produced psi that certainly would conflict with some of my reasoning and would make a cellular system the likely source, this is something we'd have to really look into, I'll check around with some people and see if anyone else has noticed this.
|
|
innerfire
Author
Respected Member
--Unknown--
Posts: 399
|
Post by innerfire on Jun 9, 2007 23:10:01 GMT -5
I talked to some of the people at Psionic Social Club and they supported you, it turns out plants have been shown to produce and even use psi on a very minute level.
With this piece of information I would have to change my theory to stay that a cellular system seems likely, however there is also the possibility that less complex organisms use a cellular system and more complex organism utilize a more specialized system to produce psi. There's no real way to tell for sure right now unfortunately.
|
|
|
Post by Cullen on Jun 10, 2007 2:32:56 GMT -5
I'd agree with you on that point. I think it is good to remember that every cell has a complete living structure, including systems that function as a form of 'nervous system' for the cell. As for actively controlling psi to any significant amount, I believe that that does require some form of reactive nervous system, although I have no solid evidence to back that statement up.
~Cullen
|
|
kobok
New Member
Posts: 3
|
Post by kobok on Jun 10, 2007 18:36:23 GMT -5
The physicist in me says: YES. Energy can neither be created or destroyed, only changed from one form to another, and transferred. So, if manipulation of psi can transcend time, then barring time travel in our 4th dimensional world, it would have to exist in some 5th dimension. A dimension of mind perhaps? Some higher dimension bounded by consciousness? I am making a lot of rather substantial propositions in this post, but I think it is worth discussing. So: Can psi transcend time? Does it exist in a higher dimension? Also: How do we control it? (any theories?) Hi Cullen. (I'm also a physicist, and thus naturally drawn to this discussion.) We know that psi transcends time after a century worth of parapsychology experiments have shown that the effect sizes are invariant as one changes the displacement between participant and target in both space and time. This means that it is experimental fact that psi transcends both distance and time. This has profound implications for the nature of psi, because it says that psi cannot propagate spatially. If it did propagate spatially, it would have to reduce in effect (either by reduction of intensity or reduction of aiming ability) as distance increases, as this is a fundamental requirement of spatial propagation. This also tells us that psi cannot be due to ANY physical mechanism known to us, because it operates forward and backward in time with equivalent ease to the present, yet again, does not propagate spatially or temporally. This has further implications for what you said above about the conservation of energy, and its counterpart the conservation of momentum. If you consider the quantum mechanical operators for space and time, you will find that when they operate on the momentum and energy operators, respectively, the result is non-zero. Also, momentum and energy are naturally the Fourier transforms of space and time. This gives a compelling indication that a phenomenon which is completely invariant with displacement in space and time does not necessarily have to obey the conservation of momentum and energy, and very likely does not. So if we consider that psi does not propagate spatially or temporally, or obey these other treasured properties of physics, then we are left with a bit of a quandary. We can resolve this by carefully examining the performance of psi to see the nature of how it operates. When one performs a link with psi, one is actually linking to a piece of information. This piece of information can be as simple as linking to someone's name, or it can be as abstract as linking to alphanumeric coordinates as done in some remote viewing experiments. In either case, the true and fundamental nature of the link is conceptual. This tells us that the true and fundamental nature of psi is conceptual. Psi actually appears to operate in a conceptual domain, or a domain where interaction is by information, and which is a superset outside of, but including, the physical domain with which we are familiar. I've written an article available here detailing some of these points, including specific emphasis on how psi cannot possibly be a neurological effect.
|
|
|
Post by Cullen on Jun 18, 2007 23:28:34 GMT -5
Very well stated, Kobok. I think it is very important to note that virtually all of quantum mechanical principles operate only on the very small scale (IE < 10^-15 or so but don't quote me on that number.) I think one of the key concepts here is the idea of causality. If psi can transcend or move faster than time, then it breaks down one of the most fundamental physical principles.
For a graphical display: Draw a standard Cartesian coordinate plane. The vertical axis is time, and the horizontal is space. Now we let the lines T=X and T=-X be projections backwards and forwards equivalent to the speed of light. This creates an hour-glass shaped region of everything that lies within the possible causes (-T) and effects (+T) of an event at the origin of the graph.
Anything that lies outside this hour-glass, if related to our event, occurs outside of causality. This means that by our current physical principles there is no way that the two events are tied together (In our 4-dimentional universe as we know it). The only phenomena that seem to break down this principle lie within the EPR paradox. (Just look it up, too long to explain here).
Back? good: The entangled electron pairs seem to transmit information instantaneously across a fairly substantial distance. This also appears to break causality.
It is a reach, but this may indicate that psionics occurs on a very-very small scale. ie 10^-20 or so. Probably smaller, as LHC is expecting to see particles down to 10^-25 meters or so, a full order of magnitude smaller than before.
This actually reminds me of a theory I had a few years ago. One idea I had was that much of psionics is altering the basic laws of probability that govern our universe (I.E. affecting things through Heizenburg uncertainty style equations). By skewing the statistical results, it is theoretically possible for the energy to jsut 'appear' out of seemingly no-where. This would imply that the energy of psi cannot do any work.
I am not sure I have ever heard of psionics being used to do work, so this is a possibility. (NOTE: Even levitating an object does not do any work, as gravity is a conservative field).
Just some thoughts to mull over, ~Cullen
|
|
kobok
New Member
Posts: 3
|
Post by kobok on Jun 22, 2007 4:14:31 GMT -5
I think one of the key concepts here is the idea of causality. If psi can transcend or move faster than time, then it breaks down one of the most fundamental physical principles. This is a common belief, even among well-educated physicists, but it's not exactly true. The ability to transmit information through time does not necessarily eliminate causality. It simply redefines causality, allowing for causality to propagate bidirectionally in time. If you think about it carefully, there's nothing intrinsic about the ideas of cause and effect that requires causes to precede effects in temporal order. It is only our everyday experience which causes us to believe they should always be this way. The first rule of studying new areas of physics is to not let your everyday experiences trip you up. The entangled electron pairs seem to transmit information instantaneously across a fairly substantial distance. This also appears to break causality. Technically, EPR experiments do not allow the propagation of classical information faster than light, and only result in correlations which occur superluminally. But since these correlations are the results of measurements driven by probability and thus cannot be controlled by physical means, they cannot be used to transmit information. This actually reminds me of a theory I had a few years ago. One idea I had was that much of psionics is altering the basic laws of probability that govern our universe (I.E. affecting things through Heizenburg uncertainty style equations). By skewing the statistical results, it is theoretically possible for the energy to jsut 'appear' out of seemingly no-where. Yes, I believe this is partially correct. I have formulated a similar explanation for the physical manifestation of future selection (check this link for info). Although I do not believe quantum mechanical processes can explain the way in which we perform this (since no such capability is within the mathematical framework of quantum mechanics), the experimental observation that psi can be used to manipulate quantum states (as published in Foundations of Physics in '89) is sufficient to allow this quantum mechanical process to be the way in which psi control of quantum mechanical states can manifest kinetic results. Future selection can then be thought of as the manipulation or alteration of a future measurement, after which the principles of quantum mechanics fill in an intervening history which will lead to that future "measurement". All acts of kinesis and types of kinesis can be explained within this single model framework of future selection. I am not sure I have ever heard of psionics being used to do work, so this is a possibility. I've definitely done things with kinesis which did work from a strictly physical definition of work. But this is quite plausible, since any ability which can manipulate quantum probabilities can create energy, and the creation of energy means the creation of the ability to do work.
|
|
|
Post by Cullen on Jun 24, 2007 1:52:49 GMT -5
That is extremely eloquently put. In terms of physical theory I can definitely see where you are coming from. I agree that we probably need to adapt a broader view of causality than that which is accepted by modern physics. I was primarily using quantum-phenomena as an example of some of the weird things that happen in physics under uncertainty principles. I'm going to continue to think about your posts and add onto this (or post again if someone comments before that) when I have had a bit more sleep and time to mull this over.
Until next time, ~Cullen
|
|
The Devil's Advocate
Author
Respected Member I will deflate your theories and claims with ye olde pointy stick of logic.
Est autem fides credere quod nondum vides; cuius fidei merces est videre quod credis.
Posts: 1,552
|
Post by The Devil's Advocate on Jun 26, 2007 10:19:29 GMT -5
First, to Innerfire Not bad on the observations, but some of those are conclusions NOT observations. Also I would like clarification of at least one observation. Ex. 3) The observation is “it is possible to expend your reserve of Psi” Anything that implies about Psi, however logical, is a conclusion. On point 11) where are you getting your data? Has someone actually tested this? Or even just demonstrated a routine craving for bananas (High potassium) in a group after extensive working of Psi? Now to the main points you made: I would tend to agree that the nervous system is a ‘focal point’ for Psi, but my observations of Psi itself, do not support that it is produced there. I have been in several very desolate places with no one around (The pan handle of Texas for example.) There has always been quiescent, ambient psi in the area, and it seemed ‘stable’ as opposed to thinning. The middle of the dessert in Arizona and New Mexico also exhibited the same trend. Pretty much anywhere I scan there is a certain level below which Psi never seems to drop. Now, I have not scanned the surface of the Moon, but it seems to me, that if organic systems were the only thing producing Psi, that might be less so, especially if we’re relying predominantly on humans as producers of Psi. To Devil’s Advocate myself: There’s a great deal of oxygen ‘just lying around’, but there are anoxic environments, and that is produced predominantly by plants. I’m just having trouble finding an ‘apsionic’ environment. We cannot conclude that Psi is exclusively produced by a human system, or even primarily produced. There is another set of conclusions, as humans do not produce the majority of the oxygen they breath, but have lungs to take it in and process it, some humans have the capability to take in and process psi which, to me, seems to originate from another source at least in bulk. I cannot discount that at least some of it is generated by humans. To Kobok and Cullen Now I have to be the geologist breaking into this physics lecture. Ironically I have found a great deal of similarity in researching Psi and researching Geology. Now Kobok, I must get further information on one thing: How do we know that Psi transcends time? My research says nothing of the sort. The only conclusion I can rationally draw is that Psi transcends Perception of time, as opposed to time itself. Given that our time units are pretty much arbitrary but are based on observable phenomena. I caveat all this: I am a geologist. I deal with rocks and dirt and things that go boom because of rocks and fluid and things that go shake and crumble. I do not deal in the dreams of which stuff is made. The flip side to “Do not let your every day experiences trip you up” is “Do not let your Theories run away with you.” We can say “This rock has convoluted cross bedding” and not be wrong, what trips us up is when we try and figure out WHY this rock has convoluted cross bedding and what systems caused it. How are we going to measure an inverted causality? In geology you can really mess yourself up if you don’t get a few absolute age dates or don’t look at a large enough area. Stratigraphic layers can entirely over turn. So how do we prevent erroneous conclusions because we don’t realize the bed is inverted… or because we’re assuming our psionic sequence of events IS inverted when it’s not? Psionics allows for interaction with time (Precognition and some retroactive remote viewing.) The former only goes forward, and the latter, in my experience is almost exclusively due to an empathic/telepathic residue that a sufficiently skilled individual can ‘read’. Again this is in my own personal experience and the observations of a few people I have spoken with off site. (They have asked not to be named here for reasons of personal safety.) The incidents I have are experiences with several grave yards, old battle fields, churches, and several interesting spots in Korea (both good and bad but not as specific as the ones previously listed). The two primary ones mentioned to me were Birkenau and Chichen Itza. (There was much more to the conversation on how impacts to psi ‘faded’ over time that may or may not be relevant anyone interested can PM.) It seems to me that one method of observing psi is being completely ignored: We can scan it. We can, as psions, perceive it directly where others cannot, something that has been seldom mentioned even here. Here are my observations from that perspective: 1) There are two information sets accessible through a scan. You can either scan psi itself, or all things connected to psi, the former is a standard scan. The latter gives much more complicated results. 2) The latter scan reveals several layers (facets whatever you want to call them) several ‘parts’ and Psi permeates all of them, rather like water in the pore space of a rock. 3) Shields made of what is termed Magick (forgiving me for mentioning it but it is a relevant observation.) register much more strongly in this type of a scan than the more standard. 4) The energy type typically deemed “Astral” also registers more strongly and more directly in this type of scan. 5) I have impacted both Magickal and Astral affects using exclusively psi. 6) Psi does not seem to have it’s own ‘stratagraphic layer’ like some of the others do. Rather it appears to permeate all of them. One can observe the other ‘layers’ through psi 7) All these ‘layers’ are connected to the more normally observable world and to some degree influence it/are influenced by it. (I have not observed the full extent of these influences, simply that they are, indeed there.) 8) Psi seems to be the only energy type that permeates all the ‘layers’ I could perceive. I’m not certain how many of these layers there actually are. I stopped counting when 20 didn’t get me even close. 9) When I consciously “access” Precognition I do not access any of these layers. 10) I have used a great deal of ambient psi... no matter how much I use I have not noted a drop in the base ‘level’ of ambient psi in an area. The down side to this is these are personal observations, which means you are taking my word on this. I have met one maybe two other people who can ‘scan’ that way. I do not have enough data to draw any reasonable conclusions from this, save that it seems, to me, that we access psi, rather than necessarily producing it ourselves. I cannot directly observe, yet, whether the greater quantity of psi around a psion are attracted or created by the psion. I have not achieved that level of refinement of detail. ~The Devil’s Advocate
|
|
|
Post by wolfdancer on Jun 26, 2007 10:29:09 GMT -5
Use of observations relating to Magick and discussion of these has been pre-approved and shall continue to be monitored and moderated. I'm enjoying the discussion. ~Wolfdancer (who retreats back to just reading for the moment)
|
|
innerfire
Author
Respected Member
--Unknown--
Posts: 399
|
Post by innerfire on Jun 26, 2007 11:34:13 GMT -5
I'm kinda out of my league on the physics discussion so I'm laying low with that -_-
To DA: Point taken on #3 For #11: Here's where I may be a little weak, like #7 this seems to be a generally accepted point which makes it annoying to find actual backup for it, however I was under the impression that it at least has been tested that this kind of effect is true for *any* kind of serious mental activity.
It's pretty sure that humans do not exclusively produce Psi, the Psionic Social Club has records of a lot of tests involving animals and Psi.
On the other points you made I can't entirely disagree but there are two things I must note:
1) Under Cullen's examples we came to the possibility that a celluar system could at least be one of the sources that produced psi, under that situation the definition of "desolate" gets a lot more specific. There's life of some form on almost every inch of this planet, it probably wouldn't be much, but even "simple" lifeforms could sustain a low level of ambient energy under the celluar theory. 2) Conservation of Energy states that energy can neither be created or destroyed, I think that was still sustained under Kobok and Cullen's argument with the possibile exception of extremely small amounts. So under this, psi can't just go "poof", it could spread out and give the impression of dissapearing, but eventually it'll have to settle somewhere.
|
|
The Devil's Advocate
Author
Respected Member I will deflate your theories and claims with ye olde pointy stick of logic.
Est autem fides credere quod nondum vides; cuius fidei merces est videre quod credis.
Posts: 1,552
|
Post by The Devil's Advocate on Jun 26, 2007 12:24:37 GMT -5
The problem is, if all mental activity depletes Potassium, then it is difficult to attribute that loss to actual Psi, as opposed to the effort to control Psi. The difference between your hand cramping up after an hour of manually writing a very strenuous report (One effect) and the affects of actually thinking out the logical arguments for the report. All that can say is "psi takes concentration" where the evidence is that nutrients are depleted in accordance with any strenuous mental activity. Now I haven't seen the evidence so this is just a speculative example. On Psi: This is true, that's how we have a stable level of Oxygen in the atmosphere, but it must still be renewed as it is used in chemical reactions, which was the point of the analogy. I can detect many things through my scans. I cannot detect how Psi is made, and frankly, I've never actually seen it used up. I have used it, but even when I convert the raw emotion most people fling at me into psi, the 'loss' of energy in the conversion isn't so much lost as sloughed off and remains unconverted. (Which is why I have a layer of shields 'under' my solar panel shields.) That leads me to another, very speculative source of Psi: Human thought and emotion and the interaction of that with the universe, but that more delves into the relm of philosophy than science at the moment! ~The Devil's Advocate
|
|
|
Post by Cullen on Jun 26, 2007 21:58:32 GMT -5
Ohh... this discussion makes me so happy.
Hmm... I guess it is about time I share my views on the matter. Up until now I have brought up several arguments, some of which hinting at my ideas on the matter, others not. Anyway here is what I believe (best working theory anyway)
While I do not fully agree with some aspects of string theory, on particular part I think may be true. String theory predicts 11 different spatial dimensions, the 4 we know about, and 7 we don't. So, where are these extra dimensions? String theory predicts that they have collapsed and exist side by side with the main 4, within our universe. In my opinion, psionic phenomena falls into the realm of one or more of these collapsed dimensions. The physics inside such dimensions have (to my knowledge) not even been speculated at yet. With that in mind, I feel that there are probably levels of interaction between these dimensions that aren't readily visible through current scientific methods. In essence, I believe that these interactions in essence act as 'ports' into the different dimensional spaces. One space could harbor psionic energy, and it is possible that it takes some biological reaction to catalyze transfer of this energy between dimensions. another one of these spaces could be what we refer to as the astral plane, using psionics as a 'port' or gateway into that extra-dimensional space. I personally find this as a fairly tidy solution to the situation. Granted it is a huge amount of speculation, but it is what makes sense to me.
DA, I'd like to discuss your scanning method more in-depth at some point.
Kobok, The future selection concept is very interesting, but I'm going to have to think about it some more before coming to any conclusions on the subject.
~Cullen
|
|
The Devil's Advocate
Author
Respected Member I will deflate your theories and claims with ye olde pointy stick of logic.
Est autem fides credere quod nondum vides; cuius fidei merces est videre quod credis.
Posts: 1,552
|
Post by The Devil's Advocate on Jun 26, 2007 23:14:12 GMT -5
The Astral is not a dimension in and of itself, if anything it is a between space call it a buffer zone. I will not go into what is on the other side of it any further on this forum.
~The Devil's Advocate
|
|
|
Post by Cullen on Jun 28, 2007 20:46:19 GMT -5
Kobok: Ok. I have read and re-read the description of future selection on the link you provided. So, let me just clarify to see if my analysis of the data presented coincides with the ideas you are presenting.
1. Future selection is an application of some form of kinesis or kinesis-like ability, and that, in fact, our commonly accepted definitions of Psycho-kinesis are actually derived from this alteration in the 'fabric' of reality.
2. This alteration occurs by manipulating the quantum states of atoms/quarks/leptons/bosons/<insert any other particle here>, by focusing on a goal, and allowing the sub-c to do the necessary alterations.
Based on that analysis, I do find a certain elegance to the proposed theory. It unifies many things very nicely, and can easily slip into the uncertainty principles surrounding the very small realms in space.
~Cullen
|
|
kobok
New Member
Posts: 3
|
Post by kobok on Jul 14, 2007 1:53:06 GMT -5
First, to Innerfire On point 11) where are you getting your data? Has someone actually tested this? Or even just demonstrated a routine craving for bananas (High potassium) in a group after extensive working of Psi? This potassium myth was started by Rainsong at Psipog. I am hoping the myth will fade away, since it seems to be without basis. Now Kobok, I must get further information on one thing: How do we know that Psi transcends time? My research says nothing of the sort. The experimental result that psi transcends time comes from precognition studies. In precognition studies, the success rates remained unchanged regardless of how far into the future the target is. The problem is, if all mental activity depletes Potassium... It doesn't. The potassium in the nervous system is recycled. But the belief that it is somehow depleted was part of the basis for the above stated myth. Kobok: Ok. I have read and re-read the description of future selection on the link you provided. So, let me just clarify to see if my analysis of the data presented coincides with the ideas you are presenting. 1. Future selection is an application of some form of kinesis or kinesis-like ability, and that, in fact, our commonly accepted definitions of Psycho-kinesis are actually derived from this alteration in the 'fabric' of reality. Yes. 2. This alteration occurs by manipulating the quantum states of atoms/quarks/leptons/bosons/<insert any other particle here>, by focusing on a goal, and allowing the sub-c to do the necessary alterations. More precisely, a future "measurement" is shifted to the desired goal, and rather than the subconscious doing anything else, the universe itself fills in the intervening history automatically. Think of the "collapse" that normally occurs during measurement of a quantum state. The time between the present and a known future will automatically form into a progression of events which leads to that. This explains how people can do enormously complicated tasks, such as healing a complicated disease in the human body. If the subconscious were to do this at the molecular level, it would require an unfathomable complexity of thought, and a degree of knowledge which greatly exceeds what we know. Yet people have been healing diseases with psi for a very long time, and they do so by focusing on a goal of a future state in which the person is healthy. Based on that analysis, I do find a certain elegance to the proposed theory. It unifies many things very nicely, and can easily slip into the uncertainty principles surrounding the very small realms in space. Indeed.
|
|