TC
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Post by TC on Sept 27, 2006 19:21:15 GMT -5
Eh, I don't really agree with that analogy, because picking up a glass of milk is different, in my /personal/ opinion. We pick up glasses of liquid every day, but empathy, though we may subconsciously use it from the day we are born, we don't consciously learn it until we discover there is such a thing. I don't think many of us were taught about empathy, telepathy, etc. the as long ago as we were taught to use our hands. It's pure instinct, and you could look at empathy as instinct if you want, but I think there's also some mental process going on in order to do something that we may not do as often as moving our hands. Yes, for people who practice empathy every day or use it even uncontrollably, I believe that we dont' have nearly the grasp of using that skill as we do moving our body. Anyway, when the discussion was started, we were speaking of a game called "guess the emotion". We had come to the conclusion that I was playing it in a different fashion than wolf does, and we're talking about the way she plays the game. I don't think we can honestly relate the way this game is played to a real life situation because what you do in this game is pick an emotion to literally become, and then project it. This projection is clearly directed at the receiver of the game. This shows me, anyway, that some thought process has to be involved. We're consciously attempting to direct a projected emotion at a person/people. Because of this fact, I still believe that a level of telepathy has to be in action here. Just for haha's let's see what PsiPog has to say about telepathy and empathy: I quote Rainsong from a seminar located here: www.psipog.net/show.php?id=10136"the telepathic perception of another person's emotions" Rainsong (lines 14-15). This is exactly how I am seeing it in this particular situation. You are looking at someone's emotions through an act of telepathy, or at least some form or level of it. I mean, you can say that's not at all what telepathy is, but I think that because we can and do sometimes bend the definitons to fit our situations, that would be a perfect explanation of what's going on here.
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lunin
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Post by lunin on Sept 30, 2006 7:34:35 GMT -5
I don't know how it works in this game, but if I try to project an emotion, the only thought in my head is the concentration on feeling the emotions in the area. Similar to forms of meditation where you still your mind, I'm really not thinking anything while I do it, even if projecting the emotion.
I don't know about your point about projecting it at a particular person, but neither do I know how it was projected so I just wont touch that part.
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Post by wolfdancer on Sept 30, 2006 18:03:47 GMT -5
Eh, I don't really agree with that analogy, because picking up a glass of milk is different, in my /personal/ opinion. We pick up glasses of liquid every day, but empathy, though we may subconsciously use it from the day we are born, we don't consciously learn it until we discover there is such a thing. I don't think many of us were taught about empathy, telepathy, etc. the as long ago as we were taught to use our hands. It's pure instinct, and you could look at empathy as instinct if you want, but I think there's also some mental process going on in order to do something that we may not do as often as moving our hands. Yes, for people who practice empathy every day or use it even uncontrollably, I believe that we dont' have nearly the grasp of using that skill as we do moving our body. I would disagree. What DA is referring to is the fact that we don't have to know the science and grasp the science behind the use of our hands to have it natural. We do not even have someone teach us as a child how to use our hands or our feet. We explore our own abilities and test them and learn. This is the same process used by those who have natural skill in any aspect of psionics. They explore, test, and learn about their own abilities long before actively discussing it with others who are looking at it somewhat academically. Anyway, when the discussion was started, we were speaking of a game called "guess the emotion". We had come to the conclusion that I was playing it in a different fashion than wolf does, and we're talking about the way she plays the game. I don't think we can honestly relate the way this game is played to a real life situation because what you do in this game is pick an emotion to literally become, and then project it. This projection is clearly directed at the receiver of the game. This shows me, anyway, that some thought process has to be involved. We're consciously attempting to direct a projected emotion at a person/people. Because of this fact, I still believe that a level of telepathy has to be in action here. Just for haha's let's see what PsiPog has to say about telepathy and empathy: I quote Rainsong from a seminar located here: www.psipog.net/show.php?id=10136"the telepathic perception of another person's emotions" Rainsong (lines 14-15). This is exactly how I am seeing it in this particular situation. You are looking at someone's emotions through an act of telepathy, or at least some form or level of it. I mean, you can say that's not at all what telepathy is, but I think that because we can and do sometimes bend the definitons to fit our situations, that would be a perfect explanation of what's going on here. I'm a little skeptical on this, but will be putting further comment on hold for further testing. I had arranged a game with two of my friends but we were interrupted by a multitude of things and only able to complete one round. I'm hoping to try again with at least one of them sometime next week. ~Wolf
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The Devil's Advocate
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Respected Member I will deflate your theories and claims with ye olde pointy stick of logic.
Est autem fides credere quod nondum vides; cuius fidei merces est videre quod credis.
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Post by The Devil's Advocate on Sept 30, 2006 23:54:10 GMT -5
1) You're flat out ignoring the fact that I have conciously projected emotion without any thought involved. How do I know there was no thought involved? I was not capable of thinking at the time... I was in the middle of an overload that was just that bad. Empathy can be conciously projected (I decided to project. That was it. That was the only thing even remotely resembling a thought in my head at the time.)
2) It doesn't explain the oh 17 years I spent as ONLY an empath... zero telepathy. CONCIOUSLY using it without having a name for it.
You, personally, may not be able to project with that kind of separation, but that doesn't make it utterly impossible. I've done it. What YOU AND YOUR FRIENDS did might have been telepathy. That doesn't mean all instances OF THAT GAME will be telepathy.
~The Devil's Advocate
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TC
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Post by TC on Oct 1, 2006 12:21:17 GMT -5
DA: Understandable. However, we were not talking about ALL INSTANCES of the game. Or at least I wasn't. I was centering debate around the examples that were given by Wolfdancer. We're not just talking about ME AND MY FRIENDS. As in the people I met on chat that wanted to practice with me? As for overloading, well, I don't know of many people who overload while playing a "guess the emotion" game. I think you're still stuck giving examples of real life situations and not focusing on the title of this debate. Also on a side note, if your brian is not performing some sort of thought process AT ALL, then that means your brain has stopped and that means you're dead. When you're conscious, you're thinking about whatever. When you're dreaming, your mind is imagining what you're dreaming about, if at all. If you're not, then you're subconsciously thinking. If you're unconscious, your brain still has some sort of thought process going on. Long story short, something is ALWAYS doing something in your brain. Sorry DevilsAdvocate, I'm not trying to ignore anything. I thought I'd addressed the situation. Maybe not the way you'd have liked it, but anyway. Only you know if you've projected an emotion without thinking. Or perhaps you don't? I'm not trying to insult your intelligence, but especially in psionics, we perform abilities that even we do not fully understand. Even when we create a psiball, we don't fully know the mechanics of psi. I doubt that we know the FULL mechanics of telepathy or empathy, which is why I'm saying I don't think you can just say for a fact "I have projected an emotion without any thought process". You're saying you spent 17 years as a pure empath. Well, I was under the impression that regardless what anyone knows about telepathy/empathy, they still have that ability inside them. When you're born, you still have the ability of telepathy, you just don't know how it works and haven't discovered it yet. There has been proof that we as humans have subconsciously performed telepathy/empathy/energy manipulations a number of times without having a clue as to what it is. I know that if I spent 17 years of my life knowing that I was performing or being involved in intense empathy, I wouldn't be able to say for sure that telepathy was not also involved. Because I didn't know how it functioned. I think this straying from "guess the emotions game" to "DA's personal life of empathy", which is not how I saw this discussion heading. Wolf: I would disagree. What DA is referring to is the fact that we don't have to know the science and grasp the science behind the use of our hands to have it natural. We do not even have someone teach us as a child how to use our hands or our feet. We explore our own abilities and test them and learn. This is the same process used by those who have natural skill in any aspect of psionics. They explore, test, and learn about their own abilities long before actively discussing it with others who are looking at it somewhat academically. Which is kinda what I'm saying. We don't have articles on how to use our hands, but we do have articles that teach us how to use psionics and telepathy and empathy. I still get the feeling I'm either missing something or I'm not explaining myself correctly.
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The Devil's Advocate
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Respected Member I will deflate your theories and claims with ye olde pointy stick of logic.
Est autem fides credere quod nondum vides; cuius fidei merces est videre quod credis.
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Post by The Devil's Advocate on Oct 3, 2006 8:52:55 GMT -5
Actually, TC people live in comatose states with autonomic but no cognitive function for years... take a look at the news papers. Do a search mostly on the ‘do we pull the plug’ cases. But that is rather beside the point. Are you telling me you’ve never been pushed to a point where actual thought is difficult to impossible? Not reaction, but framing a coherent thought of any sort? If you say “no” will been inclined to disbelieve you, vocally. The way you have been stating your case in this thread has implied HEAVILY that ALL INSTANCES of the game and by extension ALL INSTANCES of projection require telepathy. I never said I overloaded in the game. Yes, you're missing something, completely and utterly, but I'm at a loss of how to explain it to you. And people CAN be taught to walk and use their hands. "Physical Therapy" for people who have been severely injured does this all the time. Most of the time, however, we figure it out on our own when we are little babies, then toddlers, and by the time we're 2 we just don't think about it anymore. Psionics is somewhere between that and learning how to read. You don’t think of how your eye interprets the form of each letter. You just know “This combination of symbols means X”. You can play with words as you get better with the language, but again it’s something that is both taught and learned on your own, and in your native language you rarely HAVE to think about it. You want to say something and you SAY it. You don’t go into detail unless you want to. If you’re like me you read in sentences or multiple lines rather than word for word or letter for letter. I had to consciously develop Telepathy. It was utterly non-functional until I started experimenting with it. Yes, I have confirmed this with outside sources. “Only you know if you've projected an emotion without thinking.” Yes, and you insist I don’t know what I’m talking about on this score. I’ve done it so many times there is not room for doubt. There is NO telepathy involved unless I specifically want there to be. Of course since it’s the inside of my head you will have to take my word for that which you won’t. It has been repeated instances, and Wolf, being a Telepath can probably verify at least some, though not all, of the instances. You and your game group may have used Telepathy, don’t assume just because YOU did everyone does. I have been AWARE of what I do psionically since a very young age. I have actually been consciously using my empathy pretty much since it developed enough to be used. I can point out specific instances where I deliberately and consciously used it to my advantage, without having a clue what it was or what I was really doing. Several arguments with my parents as a child, school time issues. Empathy is great for backing down a bully. There are certain things Empathy can do that Telepathy simply cannot in the projective form. I’ve used several of them. Articles only take us so far. They give us tools, but /we/ still have to do the work to make psionics work. We still have to develop the abilities or the skills to control the pre-existing abilities to perform what psionics allows us to do. It’s not conscious but then again neither is 90% of what we do with our body if you think about it. ~The Devil's Advocate
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TC
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Post by TC on Oct 8, 2006 13:56:25 GMT -5
Are you telling me you’ve never been pushed to a point where actual thought is difficult to impossible? Not reaction, but framing a coherent thought of any sort? If you say “no” will been inclined to disbelieve you, vocally.
DA, just because you don't know that you're thinking something doesn't mean that your brain isn't thinking it. For example, when you do something instantly, you may not have consciously thought, "This is what I'm doing", but nevertheless, your brain has still executed a direction to your body to do something. I personally have small body twitches that I usually don't know that I was doing. But in fact, my body couldn't possibly twitch unless my brain was doing something, in this case malfunctioning. Please kindly correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that impulses were sent through your nervous system to parts of your body in order to perform a function. (I did small amounts of research in the limited time I had to dedicate to this discussion).
The way you have been stating your case in this thread has implied HEAVILY that ALL INSTANCES of the game and by extension ALL INSTANCES of projection require telepathy. I never said I overloaded in the game.
Actually, I clearly said in my last post that I wasn't implying my case upon ALL instances of the game. I believe we went over this already. Looking back, I literally said that in my post: "However, we were not talking about ALL INSTANCES of the game. Or at least I wasn't. I was centering debate around the examples that were given by Wolfdancer." To be quite honest, it looks to me like your argument is not at all based upon the game, which I'll say again, is the base of this discussion at the current time. So far you have given me examples of you being in a classroom and you being in a dorm room. If you would like to switch the subject to simply: "Is there any telepathy in empathy?", then I don't mind. But up until now I have been speaking about a game of which we are trying to see if either empathy is being used, telepathy is being used, or both.
Yes, you're missing something, completely and utterly, but I'm at a loss of how to explain it to you.
If you are having a hard time explaining it, then I think that justifies the fact that I'm missing it.
And people CAN be taught to walk and use their hands. "Physical Therapy" for people who have been severely injured does this all the time.
This is just another counterexample for the minority of people. Most things will have some sort of counterexample, and this one doesn't seem to serve any purpose. I never said people couldn't be taught to do so. I have been through physical therapy for my hands and legs. But prior to that, and even afterwards, I did know how to use my hands and my legs.
Most of the time, however, we figure it out on our own when we are little babies, then toddlers, and by the time we're 2 we just don't think about it anymore.
This pertains to my first point.
Psionics is somewhere between that and learning how to read. You don’t think of how your eye interprets the form of each letter. You just know “This combination of symbols means X”. You can play with words as you get better with the language, but again it’s something that is both taught and learned on your own, and in your native language you rarely HAVE to think about it. You want to say something and you SAY it. You don’t go into detail unless you want to. If you’re like me you read in sentences or multiple lines rather than word for word or letter for letter.
If your brain doesn't think about what you're reading, how can it store any of it in your memory?
I had to consciously develop Telepathy. It was utterly non-functional until I started experimenting with it. Yes, I have confirmed this with outside sources.“Only you know if you've projected an emotion without thinking.” Yes, and you insist I don’t know what I’m talking about on this score. I’ve done it so many times there is not room for doubt. There is NO telepathy involved unless I specifically want there to be. Of course since it’s the inside of my head you will have to take my word for that which you won’t. It has been repeated instances, and Wolf, being a Telepath can probably verify at least some, though not all, of the instances.
I'd ask you exactly how you confirmed this with 100% accuracy, but I fear that if I did, I'd get an answer such as the last, which consisted of: "I can't explain it. I just know." Which doesn't stand too well as factual evidence in any other case, including this one. As for insisting you don't know what you're talking about; insisting would require that I would say (more than one or twice) that you are wrong, I am right, no questions asked. I have very politely stated my opinions, given all the evidence you've asked from me to back it up, and I haven't stated once that you aren't correct. I'm arguing, yes, but that doesn't mean I'm not considering your side of the story. I would actually flip that statement around. Looking back, you're doing all the pointing fingers and I'm just sitting here asking you for something to back it up. You haven't asked me about it because you're the one insisting. In fact, when I usually start a statement that is debateable, I will usually begin with "I don't know about you" which indicates that I don't know in your instances.
You and your game group may have used Telepathy, don’t assume just because YOU did everyone does.
You have said this in every post, and in every one of my responses I have told you that I'm not assuming anything. You're telling me that I'm assuming something when I haven't given any signs of this.
I have been AWARE of what I do psionically since a very young age.
This means that you know the origin of psi, what psi is and exactly how psi functions. This is what you're doing psionically. I don't know about you but when I perform something empathic, I don't know the exact science behind it. Therefore I am not completely aware of what I do with empathy. One may be aware of the cause and effect, but there are things in between. Being aware of psionics and being aware of what you do in psionics are two completely different things.
I have actually been consciously using my empathy pretty much since it developed enough to be used.
Use and awareness are two different things.
I can point out specific instances where I deliberately and consciously used it to my advantage, without having a clue what it was or what I was really doing. Several arguments with my parents as a child, school time issues. Empathy is great for backing down a bully. There are certain things Empathy can do that Telepathy simply cannot in the projective form. I’ve used several of them.
Again, this goes back to several points before. First, this is another personal example of which I cannot relate to your exact situations. Also, this goes back to my first point. You can do something like that, but your body needs those impulses that tell your body to perform something specific.
Articles only take us so far. They give us tools, but /we/ still have to do the work to make psionics work.
According to all of your instances where you did something "without thinking" we don't need to do work to make psionics work. According to all of your situations, it just happens and we don't need the use of our brains to perform it.
We still have to develop the abilities or the skills to control the pre-existing abilities to perform what psionics allows us to do. It’s not conscious but then again neither is 90% of what we do with our body if you think about it.
Yes. This is true. But there is still a subconscious, and unconscious to think about. If we aren't thinking consciously, then we could be thinking subconsciously and that's still thinking.
In any case, this discussion has gone too far from what the original debate was. Besides Wolf and Stony, our posts have consisted of reiterating things we have already said. I'm finding it a bit hard to discuss this any longer. The only thing this debate is doing is decreasing my karma.
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Post by wolfdancer on Oct 9, 2006 14:35:33 GMT -5
Whew! That is a lot to respond to and my brain is whirling. Let's start by moving the discussion to game specific for the moment. I understand that a lot of the other stuff is related, but would like to see the relation pointed out more directly in this thread. For the sake of clarification let's go back to writing this like a basic basic report with appropriate labels, clarifications, and directions on how each statement relates to the original thesis. Then maybe we can follow one another more easily.
I'm not sure I'm clear on your distinction between telepathy and empathy. Is it your opinion that if thought is involved at all the projection must include some level of telepathy? Please clarify this point for me so that I can be clear on how you are reading it and respond from there.
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TC
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Formerly known as Yokusa
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Post by TC on Oct 10, 2006 18:26:13 GMT -5
As I said before, I really like the definition Rainsong gave us in this seminar:
"the telepathic perception of another person's emotions".
I know that it does not work for all cases. DA was correct in that statement. But in the case of this game, I would come to the conclusion that if you are combining a projection of a portrayed emotion with any sort of thought involved, then it should be defined as both telepathy and empathy. Allow me to explain:
Empathy in my mind tends to stand out as receiving subconsciously projected emotion or scanning someone for a given emotion or feeling. Even empathy without the paranormal meaning means the sensing of one's feelings or emotions through sensory means. Empathy in our current definition is the same except of extrasensory means.
Now, telepathy to me stands out as the receiving or sending of a concept, idea, or image by extrasensory means.
But once you turn empathy into the sending process, it involves a level of thinking in order to perform the send. For example, when you throw a ball, you are using your hand to snap back, pull your elbow forward and then snap your forehand forward, releasing the ball at just the right angle in order to release it to a designated target. This involves your action. When a ball is thrown at you, nothing is involved for you to receive that ball, assuming you let it come to you. Note: This analogy was not centered toward all of that talk we had about instinct vs. thinking and was not meant to imply that it involves conscious thought to throw a ball.
What I'm saying is that you performing an action would require you to first think about the action, whatever it is, however small it is, and then perform it once you know how. But receiving an action is potentially inevitable, assuming you are affected by the action. You need to perform no action in order to let the ball come to you, just as you don't need to perform anything to let a projected emotion come to you.
And non-psions receive our thoughts all the time, so it is under my impression that we do not have to do anything in order to receive something that is deliberately sent to us.
So since projecting an emotion would still cause one to turn at least a part of the emotion into thought, you are essentially sending thought, even if you are still sending the emotion with it, making this potentially telepathy and empathy at the same time. In this way, sending of emotions or feelings would involve some level of telepathy and receiving of an emotion or feeling would not.
This is where the argument about "you don't have to think to perform something" comes into play. What I'm trying to say is that in order to move your body, your brain has to be at least semi functional. In order for your brain to be semi functional, there needs to be some sort of thought process being performed, even if it is the slightest impulse.
So now you might say, according to your definition of telepathy in this situation, there would be telepathy in empathic receiving since we are always thinking something. But in order for it to be telepathy, the thought would need to be relevant to the receiving and would need to be performing a specific action. If you are thinking about oranges while receiving an emotion, this does not imply that you are using telepathy while receiving this emotion, because oranges have nothing to do with the emotion sent.
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Post by wolfdancer on Oct 21, 2006 0:23:59 GMT -5
Empathy in my mind tends to stand out as receiving subconsciously projected emotion or scanning someone for a given emotion or feeling. Even empathy without the paranormal meaning means the sensing of one's feelings or emotions through sensory means. Empathy in our current definition is the same except of extrasensory means. Wouldn’t scanning someone involve thought? I know I am actively thinking when I scan. Also, there is level on which emotion can be projected that is different from telepathy, as we all seem to have agreed. It is possible to consciously make a decision to send on this level without projecting any thought with the emotion. If all thoughts to do something, even in psionics, were projected with the action...well, my opinion is that that is the equivalent to telegraphing your next move in a fight or your hand in poker. If this is true (and emotions are always concepts), then empathy in the extrasensory sense would not exist. I would disagree, unless you are proposing the standing and letting the ball smack you scenario, in which case you are right. However just because it reaches you doesn’t mean it is effective. This I believe is true in this game as well. If the recipient is not actively processing the emotion or thought (depending on what is decided) then it is effective as the ball which fell to the ground after smacking the target. Really? I’m not convinced of this in the least. I have projected at people that were totally non-psionic and they recieved nothing. I have projected to those who didn’t know they had natural psionic ability or at least weren’t practicing psions who did receive. I find it hard to believe though that they did so with out any thought or action on their part.
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TC
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Formerly known as Yokusa
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Post by TC on Oct 30, 2006 14:53:22 GMT -5
After not being in this discussion for awhile, it took me a little bit to reread some of the previous posts.
I must honestly admit that I have some research to go over before I can post any more on this subject.
Thanks DA and Wolf and the others who posted for clarifying some things. Though I'm kinda confused only because of the time gap between posting about this subject, I see where everyone's coming from.
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Post by wolfdancer on Nov 1, 2006 0:39:13 GMT -5
Not a problem. I apologize for the slow speed of posting. It actually takes thought sometimes and with life getting crazy, I haven't had much time to think. We can come back to this anytime you want. ....Though I will be slow through Nov. I am re-reading things myself. See you around, ~Wolf
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